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Ellen White on Solitary Vice


Humble Disciple
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1 hour ago, Morwenna said:

I don't imagine she was lying.

Of the health consequences of masturbation which Ellen White described, according to her purported vision, which of them are medically accurate? 

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3 hours ago, Humble Disciple said:

Of the health consequences of masturbation which Ellen White described, according to her purported vision, which of them are medically accurate? 

Could be all of them as a result of sin. 

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3 hours ago, Morwenna said:

Could be all of them as a result of sin. 

OK... Could you cite some documented cases?

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The wages of sin is death. That's a pretty severe outcome. If you don't understand how sin can affect a person's biological functions and well-being, then I'm sorry, but it's not in my list of priorities to try and explain the mechanics of stress (in this case, sin) on the body.

 

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If Ellen White's purported visions on the health consequences of masturbation were medically accurate, why aren't they taught in Adventism today?

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I don't know. I'm not an Adventist teacher, pastor or lay evangelist. I homeschooled my own children. Their primary education was complete.

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9 hours ago, Humble Disciple said:

If Ellen White's purported visions on the health consequences of masturbation were medically accurate, why aren't they taught in Adventism today?

Is this a serious question?  Much of what EGW wrote is not taught in Adventism today vis a vis educational and medical institutions, church polity, health reform. How many people do you know who follow the two meal a day plan, never eat between meals are vegetarian or vegan? A respected ordained SDA minister posted on the SDA Q & A Facebook pages that he had problems with masturbation as a young man and eventually became insane. Everybody who masturbates may not become insane; neither does every smoker get lung cancer. One poster who had done extensive research in EGW posited that she was referencing tertiary syphilis when she connected insanity to masturbation  as in self abuse leads to promiscuity which leads to venereal disease which leads to insanity. Even if that was not her intended meaning it is certainly a coincidental one. Right or wrong, secret vice is beneath the dignity of a self respecting individual on the spiritual path.

 

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On 1/5/2022 at 9:45 PM, GHansen said:

Is this a serious question?  Much of what EGW wrote is not taught in Adventism today vis a vis educational and medical institutions, church polity, health reform. How many people do you know who follow the two meal a day plan, never eat between meals are vegetarian or vegan? A respected ordained SDA minister posted on the SDA Q & A Facebook pages that he had problems with masturbation as a young man and eventually became insane. Everybody who masturbates may not become insane; neither does every smoker get lung cancer. One poster who had done extensive research in EGW posited that she was referencing tertiary syphilis when she connected insanity to masturbation  as in self abuse leads to promiscuity which leads to venereal disease which leads to insanity. Even if that was not her intended meaning it is certainly a coincidental one. Right or wrong, secret vice is beneath the dignity of a self respecting individual on the spiritual path.

 

Did Ellen White really write that people should eat a bland diet in order to avoid masturbation? If so, what should we make of it today?

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1 hour ago, Theophilus said:

You are just messing around here.  

 

No, not really. You can find the information online. There's plenty of things Ellen White taught that Adventism doesn't emphasize today. 

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On 1/5/2022 at 9:45 PM, GHansen said:

Is this a serious question?  Much of what EGW wrote is not taught in Adventism today vis a vis educational and medical institutions, church polity, health reform. How many people do you know who follow the two meal a day plan, never eat between meals are vegetarian or vegan? A respected ordained SDA minister posted on the SDA Q & A Facebook pages that he had problems with masturbation as a young man and eventually became insane. Everybody who masturbates may not become insane; neither does every smoker get lung cancer. One poster who had done extensive research in EGW posited that she was referencing tertiary syphilis when she connected insanity to masturbation  as in self abuse leads to promiscuity which leads to venereal disease which leads to insanity. Even if that was not her intended meaning it is certainly a coincidental one. Right or wrong, secret vice is beneath the dignity of a self respecting individual on the spiritual path.

 

What if someone had a really high sex drive and would seek out premarital sex if they didn't masturbate? 

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On 1/6/2022 at 4:26 AM, Humble Disciple said:

What if someone had a really high sex drive and would seek out premarital sex if they didn't masturbate? 

Ask some of the RC priests involved in the pedophile scandal how repressing  a "high sex drive" worked for them.

 

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9 hours ago, Humble Disciple said:

What if someone had a really high sex drive and would seek out premarital sex if they didn't masturbate? 

What if someone (was human) and would seek out (sin) if they didn't (sin)?

Probably they should pray to God and claim victory over sin with the promises found in 1 Corinthians 10:13.

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Mrs. White has principle and application. She was teaching us about health, and this was a topic of great interest in her day. Some who have studied and compared what she said and what others said found that while she sounds extreme to us today, she was on the more mild end of her day, and this is comparing what she said to what doctors were teaching and what the New England Journal of Medicine was teaching at the time. 

Also, there is some evidence that much of the diet in these days may have lead to some of these results. 

Mrs. White's major issue is the framework of the Great Controversy, the 3 deceptions of Satan, and how other things such as health principles play a role. This is just a response of trying to somehow respond to what people were concerned with and not a part of her core message.  

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On 1/7/2022 at 9:45 PM, bonnie said:

Are you implying pedophiles are a result of repressing a high sex drive?

 

 

 

There was/is a group of RCs who comprise a group known as the Servants of the Paraclete. At one time, they specialized in treating RC clergy who had pedophilic issues. They did this by attempting to turn their clients into homosexuals, that is men who have sex with other men rather than children [of the same gender or not]. I don't know all the techniques they employed but it seems that teaching the men to simply control their libido was not on the agenda. A recent internet search indicates they have gone through some changes. There was a time when celibacy among RC clergy was understood to mean homosexuality, not total abstinence. Sometimes that works, often times not.

There is a definite correlation between early menarche and diet. It has been observed that a proper diet would cut down on abortions.

 

[NOTE:  I think that Gustave will have a response to make to this post--Gregory Matthews.]

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7 hours ago, GHansen said:

There was/is a group of RCs who comprise a group known as the Servants of the Paraclete. At one time, they specialized in treating RC clergy who had pedophilic issues. They did this by attempting to turn their clients into homosexuals, that is men who have sex with other men rather than children [of the same gender or not]. I don't know all the techniques they employed but it seems that teaching the men to simply control their libido was not on the agenda. A recent internet search indicates they have gone through some changes. There was a time when celibacy among RC clergy was understood to mean homosexuality, not total abstinence. Sometimes that works, often times not.

Thanks for the response, however you did not answer my question.

Ask some of the RC priests involved in the pedophile scandal how repressing  a "high sex drive" worked for them.

Are you saying that a repressed high sex drive, causes a person, generally men to become pedophiles and prey on young boys?

Pedophiles, (Men) outside the priesthood many times have what appears to be a successful marriage while molesting young boys at every opportunity.

 

 

7 hours ago, GHansen said:

There is a definite correlation between early menarche and diet. It has been observed that a proper diet would cut down on abortions.

 

 

This has what to do with EW and solitary vice?  Abortion is simply a choice exercised by the mother. Why would there be any desire to cut down on a woman's  choice?  Not a child as has been said many times, a collection of cells, a potential to become a child.  Personally I don't see anything traumatic about getting rid of a collection of cells, after carrying for little human beings

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7 hours ago, bonnie said:

Ask some of the RC priests involved in the pedophile scandal how repressing  a "high sex drive" worked for them.

I mentioned this because a ministry designed to treat pedophiles did not focus on the repression or control of the libido. It focused on redirecting it. I doubt that most pedophile priests set out to become pedophiles. Along the way, they became convinced that conventional marriage was wrong. They took vows to never get married which were fine until human biology interfered. They then had to negotiate the conflict between biology and their conscience [that marriage was sinful]. This conflict was resolved through pedophilia. Probably, there is not only one pattern. I offer my "2 cents" on the subject, which is about all I've got.

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29 minutes ago, GHansen said:

I mentioned this because a ministry designed to treat pedophiles did not focus on the repression or control of the libido. It focused on redirecting it. I doubt that most pedophile priests set out to become pedophiles. Along the way, they became convinced that conventional marriage was wrong. They took vows to never get married which were fine until human biology interfered. They then had to negotiate the conflict between biology and their conscience [that marriage was sinful]. This conflict was resolved through pedophilia. Probably, there is not only one pattern. I offer my "2 cents" on the subject, which is about all I've got.

I am glad you don't have more than 2 cents invested in that subject.   Can you show me where a ministry attempted to treat pedophiles  and did not focus on the repression or control of the libido. It focused on redirecting it.

To resolve the conflict between biology and their conscience [that marriage was sinful]   of course the logical solution was to become a pedophile and destroy the lives of children as that was not a sin as marriage was. Far more likely that either the priesthood was seen as a haven and easy access  for a trusted man of God(pedophile) or they hoped they would overcome the desire for young children thru the church.

 

There is a definite correlation between early menarche and diet. It has been observed that a proper diet would cut down on abortions.

Nor did you answer the above. Abortion is pretty well accepted among SDA's. At least in my area. Most are very quick to say " Oh I would never get an abortion but I would not condemn someone else"  It is never referred to as a vice, altho many times the mention of making it as rare as possible is added.  I don't quite understand that. If it is not a child and only has the potential to become one why is it here under vice.  LOsing one of my babies would have been traumatic, but disposing of cells that were an inconvenience, not so much

 

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On 1/8/2022 at 10:38 PM, GHansen said:

There was/is a group of RCs who comprise a group known as the Servants of the Paraclete. At one time, they specialized in treating RC clergy who had pedophilic issues. They did this by attempting to turn their clients into homosexuals, that is men who have sex with other men rather than children [of the same gender or not]. I don't know all the techniques they employed but it seems that teaching the men to simply control their libido was not on the agenda. A recent internet search indicates they have gone through some changes. There was a time when celibacy among RC clergy was understood to mean homosexuality, not total abstinence. Sometimes that works, often times not.

There is a definite correlation between early menarche and diet. It has been observed that a proper diet would cut down on abortions.

 

[NOTE:  I think that Gustave will have a response to make to this post--Gregory Matthews.]

I just saw this.

The founder of the Paracletes, if I understand correctly, believed that any Priest or Monastic who had committed sins against innocence be laicized. Fr. Fitzgerald adopted that position very soon after founding the Paraclete - after observing the challenges of treating gay pedophiles and their proclivity to re-bugger. 

Fitzgerald's letters are available to read and are quite pointed - eventually I understand he was basically removed from the Org he started.  Servants of the Paraclete (bishop-accountability.org) There is some dirty laundry here but I'm unaware of the Servants of the Paraclete attempting to "turn clients into homosexuals". 

It's generally known that Fr. Fitzgerald believed (quite militantly) that a man who was sexually attracted to males, regardless of their age WAS A HOMOSEXUAL. Fitzgerald was also skeptical of psychologists and psychiatrists as he believed they watered down the problem of homosexuality as it pertained to the buggery of children.  Perhaps you are speaking of the trend by psychologists and psychiatrists to define a man who has sex with young boys as something other than a homosexual and the viewpoint of the Paracletes while Fitzgerald was in charge that any man who had sex with males (regardless of age) was a homosexual - thus "turning people into homosexuals". Is that what you mean? 

I guess I'll be reading about this issue now :)

One thing I'll openly say is that I disagree with much of how the Church has dealt with the issue - I tend to align with Church Militant TV on this and a few other things. 

 

 

 

 

 

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16 hours ago, Gustave said:

I guess I'll be reading about this issue now

Their website has been completely redone. I thought the place had closed down. I recollect that the property had been put up for sale at one time. Pedophilia man on boy style is certainly homosexual. The gay lobby has been determined to draw a clear distinction between MoB pedophilia and MSM. Disinformation and obfuscation on this issue abounds. Some years ago,  people were trying to deconstruct the "myth" of recalcitrant pedophiles. It was said by an  "expert" that there was just one dodgy study being quoted again and again about pedophilic recidivism; furthermore, the expert claimed that she had searched far and wide and was unable to even find any serious studies on recidivism rates among pedophiles. I don't recall all the details but I do remember thinking that her remarks were either intentionally false or that she was a hack "scholar."  The work going on in New Mexico wasn't new and was a serious attempt to help men change. Certainly they must have kept records of some kind; additionally, their work would/should have been known to any serious scholar of the issue. After all, I knew about it and my interest in the subject is about the size of a bullet.

Camp Ped [Servants of the Paraclete in Jemez Spring NM], by Ron Russell, LA New Times, August 8, 2002 (bishop-accountability.org)

 

 

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FYI:

*  The clinical community today makes a distinction between homosexuality and pedophilia.  One is not automatically the other.

*  In addition, the clinical community dos not state that a celibate person is no longer a homosexual.  [NOTE:  In my work with homosexuals I have worked with those who were celibate and clearly stated that they were homosexuals who had chosen to be celibate.]  In addition, the clinical community does not state that a person who has sex with a person of the same gender is ipso facto homosexual.

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