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Unprepared For Christ's Return?


bevin

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In another thread, a sincere SDA wrote...

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The seven last plagues will fall soon and if they are still in the Catholic church when they fall, the Bible says they will be destroyed.

Is this what the SDA teach?

/Bevin

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It does not matter what church you have membersship in. I have seriously considered dropping my membership many times. It means nothing to me. But, now ... my wife is a Pastor so I guess I will be stuck with my membership.

No. If you say that ALL Catholics are lost ... I will equally say that ALL SDAs are lost. We are all lost and in need of a Saviour. One of my best Christian friends is a Catholic. He really loves the Lord. We have far better talks about the Love of God than I can get from any local SDAs.He is a man of prayer.

So ... Don't you dare try to judge my Christian Friend. From what I have witnesed from SDAs ... I don't think we are in a place to judge.

When the sealing comes ... we will all be sealed according to what is in our hearts. Jesus will judge our hearts ... NOT our knowledge. It is not our knowledge that will save us. PTL !!

SO ... The answer is .... All Catholics and ALL SDAs will be destroyed if they do not accept Jesus as their Saviour.

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I would like to point out that sin is going against what you know to be right. Not keeping the Sabbath is only a sin ... if you know it is right and then purposefully going against it. And only God can judge what is in your heart.

Many Catholics do not know the Sabbath truth and so are not held accountable for it. And in the end ... we all sin and come short of the glory of God and need the sacrifice of Jesus.

Anyone who states that All Catholics will be destroyed is not an Adventist in my eyes. I would call them a SAdventist.

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Originally Posted By: Redwood
SO ... The answer is .... All Catholics and ALL SDAs will be destroyed if they do not accept Jesus as their Saviour.

Amen & amen!!

The question is not determined by a popularity contest or by a vote. It is determined by what the Bible teaches. Just because some people have never heard of it or because someone doesn't like it, doesn't mean it isn't what Seventh-day Adventists believe and teach. There are some on CA who have never made a serious study of what Seventh-day Adventists believe or of the history of SDA doctrine. There are others who don't accept everything the Bible teaches. They accept what they like and reject the rest. Human reasoning, rather than Scripture, thus becomes the judge of what is truth and error.

As for the question before us, here's the evidence:

Of course it is true that before Christ returns, before probation ends and before the seven last plagues fall, everyone will be either in Christ or outside of Christ. Those outside of Christ will not be ready for Christ to return. They will be destroyed by the brightness of Christ's glory and that of all the angels. (Remember, the glory of a single angel, when partially revealed, was enough to make the Roman guards "as dead men." At the second coming the sky will be filled with all the many millions of angels. Matthew 28: 3,4; Rev. 19:14; 2 Thess. 1:9, 10) Just as at the time of the flood everyone was either in the ark or outside the ark, and as those inside were saved and those outside destroyed-- so before Christ returns all those in Christ will be saved and those outside will be destroyed. Whether we are truly in Christ will be revealed by whether we obey Him or not.

The reason the seal of God is placed on people's foreheads is in order for them to be protected from the seven last plagues that fall on all those who have made up their minds to reject God and His commandments. People reject God by rejecting His commandments, that is, by saying they will not have Him rule over them. The world by that time will be divided into only two groups-- those who do not obey God's commandments and those who do keep God's commandments, including the Sabbath commandment. (Rev. 12:17; 14:12.)

By that time, too, everyone will have heard and responded to the Three Angels Messages of Rev. 14:6-13 as well as the fourth angel of Rev. 18:1. The next event after that is Christ's coming in Rev. 14: 14-16. Revelation 15-17 describes the falling of the seven last plagues on Babylon and on all who have not accepted the messages given in Rev. 14: 6-10, including the warning about what will happen if you worship the beast and receive his mark. The mark of the beast is false worship, including the worship on the beast's false sabbath and the violation of God's true Sabbath. It has to do with obedience to man's traditions and disobedience to God's commandments. I am sure everyone at CA has heard of this and has studied it before and will not deny that it is what Seventh-day Adventists believe.

Now as to whether all Catholics will be destroyed.

No one says that all Catholics will be destroyed before the close of probation and all have had a chance to make their decision whether to obey man's traditions or God's commandments. In other words, God is giving everyone time to make up his mind now, while Christ is still our High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary. But the time is coming when Christ puts off his High Priestly robes and will then come as King. He will not be coming in order to deal with sin. He will be coming to take His glorious, faithful church home to be be with Him. At that point, everyone will be in either one camp or the other; either people will have developed the character of God and be obeying all of God's commandments, including the Sabbath commandment; or they will have the character of Satan and be worshiping the beast and keeping his false sabbath, Sunday.

Right now, as we approach the near Second Coming of Christ, the call is going out to "come out of her [babylon-- false religion and false doctrine] lest you share in Babyon's sins and receive of her plagues" (Rev. 14:8; 18:4). That call is going out now. Are we to suppose that the call is not urgent or that it doesn't matter how people respond or whether they respond?

Finally, study the following in order to find out whether this is what Seventh-day Adventists believe or not: Study the chapter "The Remnant and Its Mission" in the book, Seventh-day Adventists Believe; also study the chapters, "The Sabbath," "Christ's Ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary," and "the Second Coming of Christ," in same book.

Lastly, in order to find out if Seventh-day Adventists teach this, study the book Great Controversy by Ellen White and also the Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary, Vol. 7, specifically on Revelation chapters 14 to 19.

I might just say that I'm a fourth generation Adventist and that I studied Seventh-day Adventist teachings as a theology student at two different Adventist colleges and graduated from LLU and worked as an associate SDA pastor. My father worked as an Adventist pastor as did my grandfather as well. I have been studying Adventist teachings on these matters since the 1980s. Does that make me an expert? No? Does that mean I think I know everything? No. It just means I am very familiar with what SDA's teach on this subject.

That everyone here will diligently study these things for himself and make up his own mind based on the evidence of Scripture and the Spirit of Prophecy is my sincere prayer.

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As an SDA for generations back and a graduate of several Adventist schools and as a former assistant Pastor in the SDA church ... I would like to point out that ... SDAs do not believe in the statement of which this thread is based on.

I think there is room for all the different beliefs that are in the church. There is room for different thoughts. I would propose that John 317 wants us to all be robots. He doesn't appear to allow us to study and make our own determinations. He wants us to follow blindly what HE thinks the SDA church stands for. I would also hope that all here are good students of the Bible. But, I would hope we do allow them to come to their own conclusions. The Holy Spirit is to direct us in all truth ... NOT the SDA church. I would read LESS of church doctrine and more of the Bible.

I would also like to point out as I have several times that when John says "Right now, as we approach the near Second Coming of Christ" that you have to understand that this is Christian tradition. As most of you know ... the Second coming has already happened. Christ has come to this earth far more times than twice already. I know it is just a small point. But to discount the fact that Jesus created this earth which was his first coming and walked and talked with Adam and Eve and then came to this earth born of Mary ... not to mention wrestling with Jacob and on and on ... He has come far more times than twice.

Just like the Bible interpretations are different in all churches ... So will the interpretations of what the SDA church believes. Here at the Seminary .... I have heard many different beliefs about what the SDA church believes in classes from different professors and so I would think it would be the same in C/A. I would think it to be healthy not wrong. Let each learn and express what he feels the Bible and the Church is all about. I like the diversity of thought. Keep it up. I like to hear John 317's thoughts unless he tries to propose there is one way and only one way which is his way. I would hope that is not what he is doing. But I have to admit that it sounded like that to me.

Let us not discount all the work Jesus has done in coming to this Earth over and over again for us by referring to a SECOND Coming. Sorry ... it is just a pet peeve.

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John 317 I liked what you had to say. Personally I don't recalled growing up and being taught that all catholics will be destroyed but unfortuately I think that it comes across that way if you don't actually sit down and study for yourself. I think alot of times we or alot of us just sit an listen to the preacher and never once put our nose's into the Bible and read/study for ourselfs. My sister-in-law is catholic and is a better christian than many proclaiming to be.

pkrause

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John 317 I liked what you had to say. Personally I don't recalled growing up and being taught that all catholics will be destroyed but unfortuately I think that it comes across that way if you don't actually sit down and study for yourself. I think alot of times we or alot of us just sit an listen to the preacher and never once put our nose's into the Bible and read/study for ourselfs. My sister-in-law is catholic and is a better christian than many proclaiming to be.

pkrause

Yes, I understand what you are saying. My wife was Catholic and almost all of her family are Catholic. What people fail to realize is that no one is saying all Catholics who are Catholics today will be destroyed. We are talking about what SDAs teach, and what the Bible teaches, will happen at the time the seven last plagues fall just prior to Christ's return.

My wife became a Seventh-day Adventist by reading material that I left around the house and then by studying these things on her own, going to the Spanish SDA church at Loma Linda, and deciding on her own, without any urging on my part, to accept Christ and become a member of the church. I loved her when she was Catholic and I would love her today if she was still Catholic. I used to go with her to the Catholic church, attend Mass with her, and watch as she lit the candles in prayer to the dead saints for her mother and father and sister. But I praise God every day that she decided to obey God's call to come out of Babylon. She sometimes studies with her sisters and it's wonderful to see their responses. She has relatives in Mexico who are SDA and were Catholic but now attend the SDA church in Tijuana.

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As an SDA for generations back and a graduate of several Adventist schools and as a former assistant Pastor in the SDA church ... I would like to point out that ... SDAs do not believe in the statement of which this thread is based on.

I think there is room for all the different beliefs that are in the church. There is room for different thoughts. I would propose that John 317 wants us to all be robots. He doesn't appear to allow us to study and make our own determinations. He wants us to follow blindly what HE thinks the SDA church stands for.

I only ask that you read what I have written and study the references I give. I would never think of asking anyone at any time anywhere to accept my word simply because I say so. I am asking only that people study these matters for themselves, as I say in my posts. Wouldn't you agree that we find out what SDA believe by studying the books they have printed and the books that are published by the church, such as Seventh-day Adventists Believe? Doesn't that book show us what SDA believe? I think everyone would admit that that book and others like it are the sources we must go in order to find out what the Seventh-day Adventist church teaches. I AM NOT ASKING ANYONE TO FOLLOW BLINDLY ANYTHING I SAY BUT TO GO TO THE BIBLE AND THE WRITINGS OF ELLEN WHITE AND BOOKS SUCH AS THE ONES I REFERRED TO IN ORDER TO FIND OUT WHAT SDA'S TEACH.

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I would also hope that all here are good students of the Bible. But, I would hope we do allow them to come to their own conclusions. The Holy Spirit is to direct us in all truth ... NOT the SDA church. I would read LESS of church doctrine and more of the Bible.

I agree with everything you say here. But remember the question asked on this thread is what do Seventh-day Adventists believe, so you would want to read what SDA's have published on this topic. Wouldn't you say that Ellen White's writings are a pretty good source for finding out what SDA's have believed? How about the book, Seventh-day Adventists Believe? That would be a good source, too, wouldn't it? Have you studied this book?

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I would also like to point out as I have several times that when John says "Right now, as we approach the near Second Coming of Christ" that you have to understand that this is Christian tradition.

The Second Coming of Christ is not a Christian tradition but is a fundamental doctrine of the Bible. The first coming of the Messiah was when he was born as Jesus of Nazareth. The second coming is when Jesus will "come again" (his own words) to take his followers to be with him in heaven. Please see further comments immediately below.

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As most of you know ... the Second coming has already happened. Christ has come to this earth far more times than twice already. I know it is just a small point. But to discount the fact that Jesus created this earth which was his first coming and walked and talked with Adam and Eve and then came to this earth born of Mary ... not to mention wrestling with Jacob and on and on ... He has come far more times than twice.

We have already been over this ground in other threads, and you know that the Bible calls it the "parousia," and so it doesn't matter whether you call it the Second Coming or, as you alone prefer to call it, the "fifth coming." We are talking about when Christ comes back in glory to take his church to be with him, as he promised to do in John 14:1-3. The Bible does not anywhere refer to what you call Jesus' "first coming" as a "coming" at all. Nor does it refer to his wrestling with Jacob as a "coming." Those are your own private labels, Redwood. (By the way, can you point to a single SDA source or any other authoritative source for your belief in that matter?) You only cause confusion in people's minds when you tell people "the second coming has already happened." But be that as it may, we are all talking about what the Bible often calls the "parousia," his coming in glory for His faithful ones, as described in Titus 2:13 and in many other places in Scripture.

Just like the Bible interpretations are different in all churches

There is of course room for different view on some matters, but what we are talking about here is what the Seventh-day Adventist church teaches, and the SDA belief about this is not all over the map as it may be in all the other denominations.

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... So will the interpretations of what the SDA church believes. Here at the Seminary .... I have heard many different beliefs about what the SDA church believes in classes from different professors and so I would think it would be the same in C/A.

There are discussions in order to stimulate thinking on a whole host of questions and issues, but when it comes to what Seventh-day Adventists believe on basic church doctrines, the church has spoken clearly. As I say, all you have to do is go to the authoritative sources, such as, first, the Bible, then Ellen White's writings, then Seventh-day Adventists Believe...A Biblical Expostion of 27 (or 28) Fundamental Doctrines, and also the Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary, as well as many other books published by the SDA church and representing our beliefs.

At the seminary and at SDA universities, you can hear all kinds of things, but as those professors would be the first to tell you, their remarks and comments do not represent the beliefs of the Seventh-day Adventist church. My own remarks, just like any others on CA, are not necessarily representative of what the SDA church believes. To determine what the church believes on the subject before us, readers must consult official church descriptions of church doctrines and teachings, and those are books such as Ellen White's writings and books which have been authorized by the world church in General Conference. That is why I suggested that people consult the sources I referenced. I am astonished that many people seem to avoid those and want to declare on their own out of their own imaginations what the Seventh-day Adventist church teaches on any one subject. If they reject the writings of Ellen White and the publications by the church, they cannot really want to know what the SDA church teaches. That would be like rejecting the works of Joseph Smith or Brigham Young, refusing to study them or other books published by Mormons about their beliefs, but then saying what I personally think the Mormon's teach.

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I would think it to be healthy not wrong. Let each learn and express what he feels the Bible and the Church is all about. I like the diversity of thought. Keep it up. I like to hear John 317's thoughts unless he tries to propose there is one way and only one way which is his way. I would hope that is not what he is doing. But I have to admit that it sounded like that to me.

It's almost as if you are not reading what I am saying. If you read what I wrote here on this thread, you certainly can't possibly see anything that would indicate "there is only one way and that it is my way." Hogwash. I have always said, and I will say it again, that I am only asking that people study the references I gave, and follow my arguments, in my posts on this thread. I stand in unity with Saint Paul when he said, "Let every man [and woman] be fully persuaded in his own mind." God wants intelligent faith and worship that is freely given.

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Let us not discount all the work Jesus has done in coming to this Earth over and over again for us by referring to a SECOND Coming. Sorry ... it is just a pet peeve.

Your pet peeve, in all due respect, has no Biblical ground whatever. But it doesn't matter as long as we understand that we are talking about the same event, the parousia, when Jesus comes again, this time to take us home with him if we are faithful unto the end.

May God bless all CA on this gorgeous Sabbath day (at least here in Southern Ca.)!!!

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Oh for the love of Pete.......

I have a real problem with psychoceramics, let alone people who use the phrases "catholics destroyed", "second coming", "adventist teaches" all in the same sentence let alone the same paragraph.

And when I see someone parade thier heritage around like some badge of honor, "a fourth generation Adventist", "theology student ","graduated from LLU","My father...,my grandfather worked as an Adventist pastor ", "worked as an associate SDA pastor"...I can only shake my head in sadness....at the absolute folly of this type of reasoning..What, in Heaven's name, does one's heratige have to do with the price of tea in china? It strikes me like the Pharisees prayer, "I am not like these sinners, Lord!" So, why put the arguenment in there in the first place??? It is distracting and begs to take a person down a notch in his sanctimounious righteousness. And you don't see Gary Venden standing on his father or grandfather or uncles laurels... Talk about the study of psycho-ceramics!!!

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People reject God by rejecting His commandments, that is, by saying they will not have Him rule over them. The world by that time will be divided into only two groups-- those who do not obey God's commandments and those who do keep God's commandments, including the Sabbath commandment. (Rev. 12:17; 14:12.)

That is one way of looking at it, but it is not exclusive in the theology...Personally, there are times that I do not think it describes reality. People reject God thru other ways as well...Pharisees were real good at keeping the Commandments, but refused to have a personal relationship with Jesus...Would you say that Pharisees will be saved based upon the above reasoning? I don't think so....There is more to being saved than following 10 Commandments..

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He will not be coming in order to deal with sin. He will be coming to take His glorious, faithful church home to be be with Him. At that point, everyone will be in either one camp or the other; either people will have developed the character of God and be obeying all of God's commandments, including the Sabbath commandment; or they will have the character of Satan and be worshiping the beast and keeping his false sabbath, Sunday.

You have this thing about "following God's Commandments"....as if it were some external thing that we need to do to be counted as faithful...May I suggest that "following God's Commandments" are a personal value system that one has adopted in order to guide one in interpersonal relationships with all beings, both human and Devine? Of course, you will want some biblical text to support what I am saying, but I won't give you one...My interpretation is a larger version of all your texts that you have cited. IOWs, another interpetation of your texts....which IMHO, is not as narrow minded as yours...

But then again, who know?... I might be just as cracked as the next pot....

But at least my interpretation allows for some individual responsiblitys, and avoids the racial slurs that you attribute to the Advenstist church......

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Oh for the love of Pete.......

I have a real problem with psychoceramics, let alone people who use the phrases "catholics destroyed", "second coming", "adventist teaches" all in the same sentence let alone the same paragraph.

You may have noticed that the subject of the thread is whether SDAs teach something. So you should not be surprised if "adventist teaches" is a phrase that occures in a few sentences. And the second coming of Christ is a subject that has been of central interest to Seventh-day Adventists since their founding. As for "catholics destroyed," we are talking about whether SDA's believe that Roman Catholics will be destroyed by the seven last plagues just before Christ returns in glory. You do not believe any of these things? Do you have any concern for what Adventists teach? Do you believe in the second coming? What do you believe is the reason Seventh-day Adventists are giving the call for people to out of Babylon [false religious systems] to join God's commandment-keeping church? Is that not what the Three Angel's Messages of Revelation 14 is all about?

Have you studied the book, Seventh-day Adventists Believe...A Biblical Expostion of 27 Fundamental Doctrines? If not, have you studied any book published by the Seventh-day Adventist church that discusses in depth the doctrines of the Adventist church? If you did, did you see where it discussed these doctrines that we are talking about on this thread and did you believe them or reject them?

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And when I see someone parade thier heritage around like some badge of honor, "a fourth generation Adventist", "theology student ","graduated from LLU","My father...,my grandfather worked as an Adventist pastor ", "worked as an associate SDA pastor"...I can only shake my head in sadness....at the absolute folly of this type of reasoning..What, in Heaven's name, does one's heratige have to do with the price of tea in china? It strikes me like the Pharisees prayer, "I am not like these sinners, Lord!" So, why put the arguenment in there in the first place??? It is distracting and begs to take a person down a notch in his sanctimounious righteousness. And you don't see Gary Venden standing on his father or grandfather or uncles laurels... Talk about the study of psycho-ceramics!!!

You should go back and reread what I wrote. You obviously missed something important. The only reason I mentioned my background was not to parade any heritage or stand on someone's laurels. As I said, the reason for doing so was entirely to show that I have some experience in SDA doctrine. Here is what I wrote: "Does that make me an expert? No. Does that mean I think I know everything? No. It just means I am very familiar with what SDA's teach on this subject." It's always a best to take things in their context and not twist them so that they mean just the opposite of what they were intended to mean.

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People reject God by rejecting His commandments, that is, by saying they will not have Him rule over them. The world by that time will be divided into only two groups-- those who do not obey God's commandments and those who do keep God's commandments, including the Sabbath commandment. (Rev. 12:17; 14:12.)

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That is one way of looking at it, but it is not exclusive in the theology...Personally, there are times that I do not think it describes reality. People reject God thru other ways as well...Pharisees were real good at keeping the Commandments, but refused to have a personal relationship with Jesus...Would you say that Pharisees will be saved based upon the above reasoning? I don't think so....There is more to being saved than following 10 Commandments..

First of all, Jesus showed that the Pharisees were not really keeping God's commandments. God's law is spiritual (Rom. 7:14) and it is only through the Spirit in our lives that we can really keep God's commandments. Saint Paul talks about this in much of Romans 1 and 2, showing that the Jews only thought they were obeying God's law but that is because they understood it only in the sense of outward behavior. Jesus shows in Matthew 5 that the law is broad and spiritual and that it requires righteousness on the inside and in the heart and in the mind. That is where the New Covenant promises as recorded in Hebrews 8: 8-10 and Heb. 10:16 comes in. The New Covenant is based on better promises because God has promised to write His law through His Spirit on our hearts and on our minds, if we will give him continuous permission. The Pharisees only kept the law outwardly, as Paul says, but they weren't keeping it as God wants His people to keep it. See Psalms 119 to see how God always wanted His people to keep His law.

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He will not be coming in order to deal with sin. He will be coming to take His glorious, faithful church home to be be with Him. At that point, everyone will be in either one camp or the other; either people will have developed the character of God and be obeying all of God's commandments, including the Sabbath commandment; or they will have the character of Satan and be worshiping the beast and keeping his false sabbath, Sunday.

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You have this thing about "following God's Commandments"

Yes, I do, you bet. I learned that is the only way-- obedience to God's commandments. It was a lesson that Adam had to learn the hard way. But it was something that Jesus did continuously-- obeying His Father's commandments. It was Satan who wanted to get Jesus to disobey. The righteous man runs to obey God's commandments. Do I do this because I am of myself a good and righteous person? No. Of myself I am a sinful person-- without God and His Spirit in my life, I would not be at this keyboard thinking about God but I would be out sinning in the streets. I thank God for the change He has made in my life because without Him I would probably be dead right now. But instead I am alive and keeping God's commandments. I pray God will help me keep doing that and be loyal to Him until either He comes again or I die.

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....as if it were some external thing that we need to do to be counted as faithful...

You mean like Adam and Eve when they did an external thing and lost Eden for themselves and for all their descendents as well? Yes, the New Testament and all the Bible is very plain that our external behavior is very important in determining whether we will be judged to have been loyal to God. For one thing read about the actions of the heroes of faith in Hebrew 11 and compare with James 2: 17-26. It shows that our faith is dead unless it produces obedience to God, that is, works of righteousness that conform to God's will, or commandments. (Please also see Romans 2:6-8; 3:31; 1 Cor. 6: 9, 10; 7:19; Rev. 12:17; 14:12; 22:14, 15 [KJV].)

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May I suggest that "following God's Commandments" are a personal value system that one has adopted in order to guide one in interpersonal relationships with all beings, both human and Devine?

The Bible does not teach that we don't have to obey God's commandments if only we show love to people or claim that we love them. That would be something like a man going before a judge and saying he is not guilty of the crime of robbery because he has kept all the other laws and has loved his neighbor. That is obviously abusing the law, yet that is exactly what people do when they claim that "love" for people and for God gives them the right to disobey God's law.

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Of course, you will want some biblical text to support what I am saying, but I won't give you one...

Why not? Would the text that you won't give me be found, for instance, in Romans 13:8? If so, notice that if a man does a physical act or a mental act of committing adultry, he can't then claim that he loves his neighbor. Romans 13: 10 says, Love does no wrong to a neighbor," that is, if we truly love our neighbor, we will keep all the law of God having to do with our neighbor. And of course we will also keep all of the law having to do with God if we truly love God with all of our heart and all of our being.

I was on the verge of asking for a verse because I remember Isaiah says, "To the law and to the testimony; if they speak not according to this word [of God], it is because there is no light in them."

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My interpretation is a larger version of all your texts that you have cited. IOWs, another interpetation of your texts....which IMHO, is not as narrow minded as yours...

It's OK to be called narrow minded in the context of obeying God. What I wouldn't want to be called is a criminal unless it is to be one in the same sense as Christ was.

Please consider: Who is it that wants us to think that it is broad-minded to disobey God's commandments? Who said, "Take the fruit and eat it and see if it does not open up your minds and gain you greater knowledge"? Who wants us to think it is only the narrow-minded who stand fast by the word of God?

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But then again, who know?... I might be just as cracked as the next pot....

You sound like a very intelligent, nice guy to me.

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But at least my interpretation allows for some individual responsiblitys, and avoids the racial slurs that you attribute to the Advenstist church......

I feel bad that you think that. I'm not aware of having attributed any "racial slurs" to the Seventh-day Adventist church. Maybe you could point them out to me. I'll retract them in the blink of an eye if you are able to show me that did what you say I did.

Thank you for your thoughtful post, friend. God bless in your study.

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I suppose now we will have to decide which books written by SDA's represent what the church teaches/believes or not. Then we can have a whole 'nother discusussion on which list is correct!

Where does it ever end!

I still sense a bit of works in a lot of these discussions under various disquises. There is only one belief that saves anyone. Hope I don't have to quote a text to prove it!

Just curious to know whether you have studied the book, Seventh-day Adventist's Believe, and also whether you have read and believe the book Great Controversy by Ellen White.

The first book named is about as official or authorized an exposition of Seventh-day Adventist doctrines as you can get. I don't know of anyone that doubts that this book describes what Adventist believe, as the title itself indicates. Neither do I know of anyone that doubts that Ellen White's books give the Seventh-day Adventist view of doctrine, despite the fact that quite a few on CA evidently don't believe in her or in her writings. Please notice that the book, Seventh-day Adventists Believe, does point to her writings as an "authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction." That is an official position of the SDA church, so you can rest assured that you will find what Adventists teach by studying Ellen White's writings. That is the main reason I suggest you read those two books to find out what we believe.

As to works, yes, you will find works mentioned by Seventh-day Adventists. The New Testament also frequently mentions the importance of what we do. The important thing is that what we do is to be the result, or fruit, of faith and salvation. Neither Jesus nor Paul nor any of the other Bible writers denigrates works per se. What Saint Paul criticizes is works as attempts to manipulate God or in order to earn a right relationship with God, something that is utterly impossible. But our works do show whether our claim to be believers in Christ is valid or whether our claim to be a follower of Jesus is a lie. For instance, please read 1 John 2: 1-6.

The Pre-Advent judgment going forward in the heavenly sanctuary now and before the parousia (second coming) will determine whether our claim that Jesus is our Lord is authentic.

An excellent, helpful book on the very important issue you raise about the place of works in the process of salvation was recently written by Bradley Williams and is titled, The Silencing of Satan: the Gospel In the Investigative Judgment. You can get it or order it at the Adventist Book Center. It shows the considerable Bible evidence for the SDA teaching on the Pre-Advent Judgment and it also discusses, as I said, the relationship between works and faith, as well as the question of the Christian's assurance.

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REgarding:

"""Yes, I do, you bet. I learned that is the only way-- obedience to God's commandments. It was a lesson that Adam had to learn the hard way. But it was something that Jesus did continuously-- obeying His Father's commandments. It was Satan who wanted to get Jesus to disobey. The righteous man runs to obey God's commandments. Do I do this because I am of myself a good and righteous person? No. Of myself I am a sinful person-- without God and His Spirit in my life, I would not be at this keyboard thinking about God but I would be out sinning in the streets. I thank God for the change He has made in my life because without Him I would probably be dead right now. But instead I am alive and keeping God's commandments. I pray God will help me keep doing that and be loyal to Him until either He comes again or I die.

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....as if it were some external thing that we need to do to be counted as faithful...

You mean like Adam and Eve when they did an external thing and lost Eden for themselves and for all their descendents as well? Yes, the New Testament and all the Bible is very plain that our external behavior is very important in determining whether we will be judged to have been loyal to God."""

.................................................................

I would just like to say ... I respect John 317 and his love for God . But, I have to reject his beliefs. Yes ... they are to "works oriented" for me.

I think that even with "God and His Spirit" my works are as filthy rags. I do invite Him into my life and I still sin. I guess He is not doing His job very well.

I will again say that my "external behavior" is worth nothing. It is NOT "important in determining whether we will be judged to have been loyal to God." In fact ... I am willing to be judged right now as "NOT being loyal to God". My external behavior is NOT loyal to God. And like I said ... I guess that HE is not doing a very good job of working in me. It is only HE that works in me. My work is as filthy rags. It is worth nothing.

The bottom line is that it is ONLY GOD's "external works" that are of ANY value. And as a sinner ... I accept HIS good "external works" as mine and in the place of mine. Therefore my works ARE judged as perfect. His works become mine in place of My horrible and incomplete works. I am judged as having perfect works but it is based on HIS works and therefore MY works have NOTHING to do with Anything. My works are not judged ... only His.

So to say that My works are "important in determining whether we will be judged to have been loyal to God" ... is just good old fashioned salvation by works no matter how you try to white wash it.

Because I respect John 317 so much ... I don't want for him to think that I am attacking him. I AM attacking this salvation by works philosophy. It is dangerous and I have seen what it does in the lives of people. So ... John I apologize if you have taken this personally. I want to hear all peoples beliefs in this forum.

I would point out that the Title of this thread is Will ALL Catholics be Destroyed. And you can throw whatever SDA books you want at it . They will all be interpretated with just as much confusion as the Bible and Ellen White. In the end ... your individual mind has to determine what you think the church and its individuals believe. But ... again I will answer it with the belief that the SDA church does NOT believe that "ALL Catholics Will be destroyed". That is the question of this thread and that is my personal belief.

Thank you John for sharing your personal perspective on this topic. Let each person decide for himself.

By the way ... I haven't learned how to use those nice quote things at the bottom. Perhaps someone could send me a PM and explain how to use them. I have tried and tried. Thank you.

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John 317 ...

Regarding :

" The Second Coming of Christ is not a Christian tradition but is a fundamental doctrine of the Bible. The first coming of the Messiah was when he was born as Jesus of Nazareth. The second coming is when Jesus will "come again" (his own words) to take his followers to be with him in heaven. Please see further comments immediately below.

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As most of you know ... the Second coming has already happened. Christ has come to this earth far more times than twice already. I know it is just a small point. But to discount the fact that Jesus created this earth which was his first coming and walked and talked with Adam and Eve and then came to this earth born of Mary ... not to mention wrestling with Jacob and on and on ... He has come far more times than twice. """

................................................................

You have stated that my beliefs about what you call the second Coming have no Biblical basis. I would like to challenge YOU to show me any Biblical quote that says that when Jesus comes it will be His SECOND Coming. Since you say it is Biblical ... Please show me . It simply does not make sense to say it is His second coming when it clearly is NOT. Can you dispute the facts that Jesus came here for the FIRST time when he created this earth and walked and talked with Adam and Eve? Do you dispute that he came here and fought with Jacob. Do you dispute that he came and was born of Mary. Do you dispute that he returned to His father after talking to Mary at the tomb. Do you dispute that He returned after being with the Father and was with the Disciples and others.

I could go on and on. But, when I read scriptures I see FAR more than two comings to this earth. But, you are still looking for His SECOND coming and I think that discounts a lot of His Comings to this earth and discredits His efforts for us.

If anyone reads the scriptures and is able to count ... they will determine that the Second Coming belief is NOT BIBLICAL. His COMING is biblical. But His Second Coming is long gone. So ... Again I say that this idea of His Second Coming is just a tradition and NOT biblical. If you feel it is Biblical ... please show scriptural evidence.

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I thank God for the change He has made in my life because without Him I would probably be dead right now. But instead I am alive and keeping God's commandments.

Oh boy...here goes:

1] A "change" does not equate to the "keeping the law". Yes, a change is in harmony with the law, but where you are falling short is out of harmony with the law. And remember, the law doesn't hand out partial credit (and neither does Christ). Hence, according to James, if you miss out on one you are guilty of all.

2] You are not keeping the law. You are keeping parts of it. To keep the law means to live Christ's life. Are you doing that? Well, let me give you Ellen so as to test you:

"Not to see the marked contrast between Christ and ourselves is not to know ourselves." [RH 9-25-1900]

As to Babylon being fallen, well, let me again give you Ellen:

"Not yet, however, can it be said that 'Babylon is fallen',... because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication." [MAR 171]

The fall of Babylon is complete apostasy from the everlasting gospel as foretold in Rev chapter 14. The gospel is not about keeping your church's rules...it is the truth concerning the birth, life, death and resurrection of Jesus as the Son of God & the Son of men.

Robert

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And when I see someone parade thier heritage around like some badge of honor, "a fourth generation Adventist", "theology student ","graduated from LLU","My father...,my grandfather worked as an Adventist pastor ", "worked as an associate SDA pastor"...I can only shake my head in sadness....at the absolute folly of this type of reasoning..What, in Heaven's name, does one's heratige have to do with the price of tea in china? It strikes me like the Pharisees prayer, "I am not like these sinners, Lord!" So, why put the arguenment in there in the first place??? It is distracting and begs to take a person down a notch in his sanctimounious righteousness. And you don't see Gary Venden standing on his father or grandfather or uncles laurels... Talk about the study of psycho-ceramics!!!

You should go back and reread what I wrote. You obviously missed something important. The only reason I mentioned my background was not to parade any heritage or stand on someone's laurels. As I said, the reason for doing so was entirely to show that I have some experience in SDA doctrine. Here is what I wrote: "Does that make me an expert? No. Does that mean I think I know everything? No. It just means I am very familiar with what SDA's teach on this subject." It's always a best to take things in their context and not twist them so that they mean just the opposite of what they were intended to mean.

I got it...what you missed is what is highlighted in red ? What is the use of parading your heritage around when a simple "having been a fourth generation Adventist, I understand the nuances in SDA doctrine". Instead, I am given the 'pleasure' of listening to the drivel of someone's heritage just to prove that he understands "what SDA's teach on this subject"... Sorry, but my comments still stand, thusly- What does one's heritage have to do with the arguement? Answer- Absolutely NOTHING!

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Have you studied the book, Seventh-day Adventists Believe...A Biblical Expostion of 27 Fundamental Doctrines? If not, have you studied any book published by the Seventh-day Adventist church that discusses in depth the doctrines of the Adventist church? If you did, did you see where it discussed these doctrines that we are talking about on this thread and did you believe them or reject them?

Aren't you assuming that eveyone believes as you do, when they read this stuff? I think you do....And I already know that I don't agree with your views on salvation, let alone last day events and where we are prophetically ....We can't even agree that your behavorist orientated relationships are what the church should emulate....And since you are kinda begining your observations there on a behaviorist model,how do you expect to move to any greater depth of understanding when the assumptions are already faulty? I already know that the pharasees think thier religon is progressive, in that they give up this and that and the other things, but it doesnt really deal with love, mercy, hope, forgiveness with the ideal of bringing people back into fellowship with one another.

Sorry...

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First of all, Jesus showed that the Pharisees were not really keeping God's commandments. God's law is spiritual (Rom. 7:14) and it is only through the Spirit in our lives that we can really keep God's commandments. Saint Paul talks about this in much of Romans 1 and 2, showing that the Jews only thought they were obeying God's law but that is because they understood it only in the sense of outward behavior. Jesus shows in Matthew 5 that the law is broad and spiritual and that it requires righteousness on the inside and in the heart and in the mind. That is where the New Covenant promises as recorded in Hebrews 8: 8-10 and Heb. 10:16 comes in. The New Covenant is based on better promises because God has promised to write His law through His Spirit on our hearts and on our minds, if we will give him continuous permission. The Pharisees only kept the law outwardly, as Paul says, but they weren't keeping it as God wants His people to keep it. See Psalms 119 to see how God always wanted His people to keep His law.

I knew what you meant, all the way up to the part underlined in red. But that part give a totally different meaning to the intent of the words preceding it. When He writes something spiritual in YOUR HEART, it means that it becomes a part of you...And thus, you are changed. But your intent is to remind us that we need to be reminded of God's ideal...What you forget is that because of God Spirit in us and because we have assimulated God's values and principles as our own, we have the mind of Christ. This changes us...and changes everything about us and our view of the world. But don't worry, because our love for Christ still causes us to check in with God, our Father, and Jesus our Brother. Because we have the mind of Christ, we don't pick and chose when to apply the 10 Commandment. Because we have the mind of Christ, we go to the beat of a different drummer...we have a confidence that pharisees could never understand...

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May I suggest that "following God's Commandments" are a personal value system that one has adopted in order to guide one in interpersonal relationships with all beings, both human and Devine?

The Bible does not teach that we don't have to obey God's commandments if only we show love to people or claim that we love them.... [snip]...That is obviously abusing the law, yet that is exactly what people do when they claim that "love" for people and for God gives them the right to disobey God's law.

Never implied that we don't have to obey...Because we have addopted HIS value system and made it our own, that allows us to be God's servents, and His ambassadors...To go into places where many a religionist or pharisee fear to tread and many fear...

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Please consider: Who is it that wants us to think that it is broad-minded to disobey God's commandments? Who said, "Take the fruit and eat it and see if it does not open up your minds and gain you greater knowledge"? Who wants us to think it is only the narrow-minded who stand fast by the word of God?

See, you think that I am advocating a way to disobey the commandments...You think that I am advocating that the law was done away with....What you don't realize is that by making the law MY PERSONAL VALUES, I am no longer standing fast BY the word of God...But rather the word of God is standing fast IN me.

I no longer have the Word of God by my side, I have the Word of God IN ME. It is no longer I who live, but rather Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live, I live by the Grace of God who died and gave Himself for me. Gal 2:19-21

And that is the difference between us, John. Until you assimulate God's word as your value system, you can never understand the freedom that we have, nor our servatude.

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The church has and continues to change praise God. Truth is progessive. I am glad the church continues to grow.

I hope the church becomes more tolerant and less rigid and I think is doing that.

I think there is room for many in the SDA church. We don't have to impose one interpretation because in a few years it may change.

In the last days we may not be able to trust what "the church" tells us. We may have to know the Bible well enough to think for ourselves and make our own choices. The organization itself may not even exist at the time of Christ's coming. [This idea is not original with me, but was espoused by the late Dr. Richard Nies, a true theologian.]

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Very Good Jeannie. And very true. I really valued Richard Nies also. I have a statement of his written in my Bible. It says " No one will ever be lost because they sin!! They will be lost because they refuse pardon."

It kind of throws church judgment out the window. With that statement ... there should be no reason to kick people out of the church.

We have to be able to stand up for truth even though our Church does not teach or practice it.

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First of all, Jesus showed that the Pharisees were not really keeping God's commandments. God's law is spiritual (Rom. 7:14) and it is only through the Spirit in our lives that we can really keep God's commandments. Saint Paul talks about this in much of Romans 1 and 2, showing that the Jews only thought they were obeying God's law but that is because they understood it only in the sense of outward behavior. Jesus shows in Matthew 5 that the law is broad and spiritual and that it requires righteousness on the inside and in the heart and in the mind. That is where the New Covenant promises as recorded in Hebrews 8: 8-10 and Heb. 10:16 comes in. The New Covenant is based on better promises because God has promised to write His law through His Spirit on our hearts and on our minds, if we will give him continuous permission. The Pharisees only kept the law outwardly, as Paul says, but they weren't keeping it as God wants His people to keep it. See Psalms 119 to see how God always wanted His people to keep His law.

I knew what you meant, all the way up to the part underlined in red. But that part give a totally different meaning to the intent of the words preceding it. When He writes something spiritual in YOUR HEART, it means that it becomes a part of you...And thus, you are changed. But your intent is to remind us that we need to be reminded of God's ideal...What you forget is that because of God Spirit in us and because we have assimulated God's values and principles as our own, we have the mind of Christ. This changes us...and changes everything about us and our view of the world. But don't worry, because our love for Christ still causes us to check in with God, our Father, and Jesus our Brother. Because we have the mind of Christ, we don't pick and chose when to apply the 10 Commandment. Because we have the mind of Christ, we go to the beat of a different drummer...we have a confidence that pharisees could never understand...

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The Bible does not teach that we don't have to obey God's commandments if only we show love to people or claim that we love them.... [snip]...That is obviously abusing the law, yet that is exactly what people do when they claim that "love" for people and for God gives them the right to disobey God's law.

Never implied that we don't have to obey...Because we have addopted HIS value system and made it our own, that allows us to be God's servents, and His ambassadors...To go into places where many a religionist or pharisee fear to tread and many fear...

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Please consider: Who is it that wants us to think that it is broad-minded to disobey God's commandments? Who said, "Take the fruit and eat it and see if it does not open up your minds and gain you greater knowledge"? Who wants us to think it is only the narrow-minded who stand fast by the word of God?

See, you think that I am advocating a way to disobey the commandments...You think that I am advocating that the law was done away with....What you don't realize is that by making the law MY PERSONAL VALUES, I am no longer standing fast BY the word of God...But rather the word of God is standing fast IN me.

I no longer have the Word of God by my side, I have the Word of God IN ME. It is no longer I who live, but rather Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live, I live by the Grace of God who died and gave Himself for me. Gal 2:19-21

And that is the difference between us, John. Until you assimulate God's word as your value system, you can never understand the freedom that we have, nor our servatude.

If you had explained it that way to begin with there never would have been any disagreement between us about any of this. Just remember (1) we shouldn't trust ourselves, because (2) even though we have the "mind of Christ" in the Holy Spirit, yet we have a human mind and that mind can raise its dirty head up at any time and prove what the Bible says about it, that of itself it is "desperately wicked, and who can know it?" Apart from Christ, Paul himself and Peter too were no good. Neither am I and neither is any other human.

But I can tell all the way from here that you're one terrific, generous guy and that you know yourself through and through. Thanks for the headsup.

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I really valued Richard Nies also. I have a statement of his written in my Bible. It says " No one will ever be lost because they sin!! They will be lost because they refuse pardon."

Thank you Redwood! I hadn't heard that one. It's wonderful. Think I'll write it in my own Bible!

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