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Unprepared For Christ's Return?


bevin

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Redwood:.. the Title of this thread is Will ALL Catholics be Destroyed.

Yes, that is true and it was a mistake, because although the quote is from me, you will notice that I did not say "all Catholics will be destroyed." What it means is that when Jesus returns, all people everywhere in any denomination or non-demonination who are living in violation of God's commandments will be destroyed, including Seventh-day Adventists, including me if I am living that way. (A given is that only those with the Holy Spirit in their lives can obey truly God's commandments and love as God loves.) The fact is that when Christ returns, all who are keeping Sunday and violating the Sabbath will be destroyed, just as all who are living in any other sin will be destroyed; for instance in adultery or in lying or stealing. (Please see 2 Thess. 1: 7-10; Rev. 22:11, 14,15; 1 Cor. 6:9-11; Hebrew 9: 28; Titus 2: 11-14; John 3:3; 1 John 9; Jude 3-5, 14-15; Rev. 16:15.)

4 questions:

1) Upon whom do the seven last plagues fall just before Christ returns?

2) Who or what is Babylon in Revelation 17-19?

3) Why are the Three Angels Messages, in addition to the message of the fourth angel's message of Rev. 18:1, proclaimed?

4) What do you understand those messages to mean, and what is the effect of the giving of them?

I don't necessarily expect you to answer each one of those questions. I ask them because they are directly related to the question asked by this thread?

Off to work. Redwood, if you still need help tomorrow, I'll be happy to do it. Bye.

PS. If you give me time and stay with me and are open to evidence, I will prove to you from scripture that what I am saying here is according to God's word. But that is conditioned upon your accepting all of the Bible as God's word and revelation.

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  • John317

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HEY

I have heard that when he seven last plagues come

that your fate is sealed no matter if you are in the

catholic church or any other church. but will all catholic

be lost my answer would be NO just like all

seventh day advetnist are not going to saved.

that is why you need that close reatlionship with JESUS.dgrimm60

Did you get your understanding from study of the Bible and of the writings of Ellen White and other Seventh-day Adventists books? It sounds like you are just going by hearsay. The subject is just too important to be going by hearsay.

You are right that we all need a close, personal relationship with Jesus Christ. You are also right that anyone who does not have this kind of relationship with Jesus will not be ready to meet Him when He comes. Many Seventh-day Adventists, perhaps even the majority of them, will not be ready. I pray that if I am alive I will be among the saved. I also pray the same for many others.

At the end, just before Christ returns, people will be called to make up their mind whether they love Jesus enough to obey His commandments or whether to obey human laws that will be in opposition to God's laws. People who are practicing false religious worship and are a part of Babylon are being called out of those false churches in order that they won't received the seven last plagues which will fall on the "beast" power and on all those who follow it. That is happening now because God wants them to escape the terrible plagues just as He instructed the Israelites and even the Egyptians how to escape the plagues by placing the blood above the doorpost. It is not that God loves Catholics any less than SDA. That is why He calls us to go out into the streets and tell people what is about to happen. That is what the Three Angles Messages are all about. They are messages that appeal to people to "come out of" false religious worship so that people will not have to suffer when the plagues strike the false churches, including the Catholic church, but also including people who are not following what they know be to right So of course this means that Seventh-day Adventist have to get right and stay right with God no less than Catholics.

If you are a Seventh-day Adventist, have you always believed what you've written here or did you change your mind at some point due to Bible study?

I'm going to be writing at some length soon on this subject and showing the Bible evidence but also answering the question about what the Seventh-day Adventist church teachings on the issue raised in this thread. I hope you'll come back to this thread and read the rest of what I have to say about this subject.

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John 317 ... You have very interesting interpretations of Ellen White and scripture. But I would not discount or belittle what dgrimm60 has said.

Like all here ... you are entitled to have your opinions and to try to "prove" your side as you do.

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Kinda Hard when you are still looking for His Second Coming. Just by that you show me that you are not willing to accept scripture.

Hi Redwood,

How many books by Seventh-day Adventists or by any other Christian group or individuals do you know of that refer to Christ's return as "the Fifth Coming"? Could you give me one reference work written by a competant Christian scholar who agrees with you that the Second Coming has already happened?

I have dozens of books that refer to Christ's return as "the Second Coming." Many are by non-SDA scholars, such as Systematic Theology by Wayne Grudem, as well as Strong's Systematic Theology, also Louis Berkhof's well known Systematic Theology. All of these are highly respected expositions of Bible doctrines.

You only cause confusion by telling people that the Second Coming has already occurred. The Bible says Jesus " will come again" (John 14: 3) and very plainly tells us that Jesus "will appear the second time" (Hebrews 9:28). That is why it is called "the second coming," because scripture refers to it as the second appearance. Notice the Bible does not refer to it as the fifth appearance or fifth coming. I'm sure your pastor wife will not be giving sermons about the "fifth coming of Jesus," will she? I can imagine that would certainly raise a lot of eyebrows, don't you think?

The first time the Messiah came to this earth as the Messiah was when he was born of the virgin Mary. The second time the Messiah will appear will be when he returns in glory for His church.

It is true that it was the preincarnate Christ who made Adam and Eve. It was also the preincarnate Christ who proclaimed the law from Mt. Sinai. The preincarnate Christ has been on the earth a number of times. But your mistake is in describing those as "comings," which the Bible never does.

Please notice that all books by Christians refer to the parousia as "the Second Advent of Christ," or "the Second Coming."

Please study the book, Seventh-day Adventists Believe, which has a Chapter 24 entitled, "The Second Coming Of Christ." Ellen White also refers to it under the same name many, many times. That is in total agreement with scripture, as Hebrews 2:28 proves. You might also look up the chapter, "Christ's Second Coming," in that old favorite Bible study book, Bible Readings for the Home.

Finally please visit a Christian Book Store or the Aventists Book Center and look up all the books or periodicals discussing the Second Coming. You will find that there are no references to books entitled, "The Fifth Coming." And that is because it is not Biblical to refer to Jesus' coming in that way.

"So Christ, having been been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear the second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him" (Hebrew 9:28). It does not say, "Christ... will apear the fifth time" but rather "Christ will appear the second time." Jesus said, "I will come again," (John 14:3). He never said, "I have come again and again," but rather, "I will come again."

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John 317 ... You have very interesting interpretations of Ellen White and scripture. But I would not discount or belittle what dgrimm60 has said.

Like all here ... you are entitled to have your opinions and to try to "prove" your side as you do.

I want to wait and let some others, perhaps some SDA pastors, answer the question posed by this thread before I give a complete answer containing documentary proof that the SDA church does indeed teach what I have stated.

These are not my interpretations. As you will see, I will document everything from authoritative Seventh-day Adventist sources.

Part of the problem seems to be that many evidently have gotten the wrong idea that I am saying all people who are now Catholics will be destroyed. Perhaps some somehow got the mistaken impression, too, that I am saying all who have ever been Catholic will be destroyed. But I am not saying the church teaches or believes any of those foolish notions.

What I am prepared to show is that the Seventh-day Adventist church unquestionably believes the Bible says that the seven last plagues will fall on the seat of the Beast and on Babylon and on people who support Babylon and the Beast. I will show who or what the SDA church identifies as the Beast and as Babylon. Finally, I will show that the Seventh-day Adventist church teaches that all who receive the mark of the beast will be destroyed when Christ appears the second time, or at the second coming.

In the meantime, please study "The Second Coming of Christ" in Seventh-day Adventists Believe... It really is a wonderful chapter. Check it out thoroughly comparing it with the Bible, and then let me know if you find any theological errors. I really look forward to hear what you have to say.

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There is always a problem with what the church actually teaches and what is popularly believed by it members.

An example of this is that most SDA's believe that the SDA churchs still believes that Vicarius Filii Dei fits the 666 puzzle! Current, official SDA teaching rejects that!

There may not be a sentence that says "all Catholics will be lost" but in SDA popular culture there may be a general agreement with that!

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I would like to challenge YOU to show me any Biblical quote that says that when Jesus comes it will be His SECOND Coming. Since you say it is Biblical ... Please show me . ... Again I say that this idea of His Second Coming is just a tradition and NOT biblical. If you feel it is Biblical ... please show scriptural evidence.

Hebrews 9: 28: "So Christ...will appear the second time...to save those who are eagerly waiting for him."

It bears repeating that it does not say Messiah will appear the fifth time but "the second time."

You see, Redwood, it is talking about Jesus AS Messiah, not as a preincarnate being. It is true that Jesus in his preincarnate state did come to this earth on other occasions, but when we speak of his "first coming" or his "second coming," we are talking about his coming here specifically as the Messiah. He came once as a human and now we are talking about his coming to earth again, this for the second time as a human, not merely Yahweh but as the God-Man. He is coming back, "the second time," as a man; for Jesus will forever be united with us as the head of our human family, yet as a gloried human who is also 100% God.

Does that make any kind of sense at all?

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There is always a problem with what the church actually teaches and what is popularly believed by it members.

An example of this is that most SDA's believe that the SDA churchs still believes that Vicarius Filii Dei fits the 666 puzzle! Current, official SDA teaching rejects that!

There may not be a sentence that says "all Catholics will be lost" but in SDA popular culture there may be a general agreement with that!

OK, I hear what you're saying, but I'm not suggesting that "all Catholics will be lost." God has millions of honest, sincere people in the Catholic church today, but He is calling to them, "Come out of Babylon, my people."

As you may have read by now, I am saying that the Seventh-day Adventist church's eschatological view is that those who choose to remain in Babylon just prior to Christ's return will be destroyed. We Seventh-day Adventists believe, then, that all who receive the mark of the beast will be lost, and everyone will receive the mark of the beast who does not receive the seal of God. And who receive the seal of God? Only those who truly "keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus." It will be impossible for anyone who is keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus to receive the mark of the beast. At that time, only those keeping God's commandments and the faith of Jesus will be ready for Christ to return. (It's understood that people can keep God's commandments only through the power of the Holy Spirit and a personal, faith-based relationship with Jesus Christ.)

As I said elsewhere, I'm prepared to give documented evidence that this is what our church teaches and will do it in the next day or two unless someone else does it first.

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So ... Don't you dare try to judge my Christian Friend. From what I have witnesed from SDAs ... I don't think we are in a place to judge.

When the sealing comes ... we will all be sealed according to what is in our hearts. Jesus will judge our hearts ... NOT our knowledge. It is not our knowledge that will save us. PTL !!

SO ... The answer is .... All Catholics and ALL SDAs will be destroyed if they do not accept Jesus as their Saviour.

Amen! And I am so thankful that the wisest, most merciful, most omniscient Judge of all is the one sitting in judgement. Because His Son is my Bridegroom and covers me with His skirt.

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John 317 ... It is very interesting that you should stress the one and only text in the NT that refers to the "second" coming. The reason that it does ... is because there is a big qualifier in Heb. 9:28 and the qualifier is that it refers back to the time when he was "once offered". So ... yes it is the second coming after he was once offered.

If it is so significant ... why is there only one text that you can give considering the "second coming" ?

I think that common sense would tell you that it is not his second coming to this earth. The fact that the Bible Readings would have something about the second coming means nothing. Are you trying to say that Bible Readings was inspired work ? How much do you know about the authors of that book?

I think the evidence is clear and I would not begin to put myself into the mind of authors who follow in the "tradition" of calling it the second coming. But I believe in my addition far more that one qualified text.

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John 317 ... I am in agreement with what you have said "the seven last plagues will fall on the seat of the Beast and on Babylon and on people who support Babylon and the Beast."

But ... that is not saying what the title of this thread says which is "Will ALL Catholics Be Destroyed"

The point here is that having your name in the Membership Books of the SDA church or in the Catholic Church ... does not mean you will be saved or not saved. Being "Catholic" does not mean that you will be lost ... just as being SDA does not mean you will be saved.

God judges the heart. He does not judge from the membership books.

You may think this is nit-picky . But I think it is a very important issue. I personally do not believe in membership just for this very reason in that it is so abused.

I have Catholic friends so I don't like to follow the trend of Catholic bashing that is in the church. I will siimply say that God knows what is in the heart. He does not need the membership books to be the judge.

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In the meantime, please study "The Second Coming of Christ" in Seventh-day Adventists Believe...

John 317 please forgive me if I make a side comment about this. You have really touched a nerve here. I served on a Church Board which I have referred to on occasions ... and the primary author of the SDA Believe book was also on this board. You can look up his name if you like. I don't care.

All I would say is that I would not use that book as gospel under any circumstances knowing the man that I know. Also ... the SDAs Believe book does not address the issue that we are talking about. It does not attempt to count or discount the "comings". It only follows the tradition of Hebrews and counts from its qualifier. The way it is used or abused in the use of the term now days by the general congregations is not corrct.

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Originally Posted By: Redwood

I would like to challenge YOU to show me any Biblical quote that says that when Jesus comes it will be His SECOND Coming. Since you say it is Biblical ... Please show me . ... Again I say that this idea of His Second Coming is just a tradition and NOT biblical. If you feel it is Biblical ... please show scriptural evidence.

Hebrews 9: 28: "So Christ...will appear the second time...to save those who are eagerly waiting for him."

It bears repeating that it does not say Messiah will appear the fifth time but "the second time."

You see, Redwood, it is talking about Jesus AS Messiah, not as a preincarnate being. It is true that Jesus in his preincarnate state did come to this earth on other occasions, but when we speak of his "first coming" or his "second coming," we are talking about his coming here specifically as the Messiah. He came once as a human and now we are talking about his coming to earth again, this for the second time as a human, not merely Yahweh but as the God-Man. He is coming back, "the second time," as a man; for Jesus will forever be united with us as the head of our human family, yet as a gloried human who is also 100% God.

You say it does "not say Messiah will appear the fifth time but "the second time." John ... I would have you read the verse ... it does not even say that the Messiah will appear the second time. It doesn't even use the word Messiah anywhere in the verse.

Since I disagree with everything you have said here ... I really don't know where to begin. You seem to be speaking for a lot of people with out any proof of what you say here.

The text does not use the word Messiah at all. It does point back to or refer to the "once offered". But I would propose that the reason Jesus came to the earth from the very beginnings of time with Adam and Eve was to be the Messiah for the human race. At each one of his "comings" he came to be our Messiah. That has always been His goal. The great Controversy theme is all about Jesus saving us. Calvary was just one part of the entire theme. He is all about saving us and vindicating His name before the Universe.

Like I said ... this is the only verse in the entire NT that even refers to a "second" coming and it does have the big qualifier of referring back to the "once offered". So ... the counting starts from there for this verse. But it was mentioned this once but not once for all. The incarnate issue is not even in this verse. Christ came to this earth the very first time to save man with His plan. He is our Messiah but ... He has always been our Messiah it just took many steps. It is not a modern invention. He came to this earth in all his comings to save us. He had the interests of all the Old Testament characters in his heart and in his plan.

To say that you can only count his "coming" after his death is a big leap. I see no directives that say that in any scripture or SDA publications of any kind. Not even your famous SDAs Believe. When this term is used there is no qualifiers made as there is in the text.They just say ... second coming. Talking about appearances ... I would say that the appearances made when referring to a second coming is far more dangerous than my use of the term the Fifth Coming. Mine is clearly accurate and theirs is in need of a qualifier.

You may say that "when we speak of his "first coming" or his "second coming," we are talking about his coming here specifically as the Messiah" ... but ... where is the proof. and I would propose that He has always come as our Messiah. You can talk about incarnate all you want but where does it say that that is the criteria.I haven't read it in any publication. And if that is what you are referring to then you should make it clear when you use the term. Otherwise it is confusing. When people count they do not come up with the number that you do.

Bottom line is that personally I feel it discounts the activity of Jesus to limit his purpose on this earth to downgrade the importance of all of his "comings" to just those after he was "once offered".

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Oh for the love of Pete.......

What, in Heaven's name, does one's heratige have to do with the price of tea in china?

I think you have been drinking too much of that "tea in China" for there is no such word as "psycho-ceramics" and John317 has not come across in the way you try to portray.

You should study your signature more closely. The rest of your post is from the world of Nematocera

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I consider his coming to this earth to create it and to establish the Sabbath and all of creation week as important.

I consider his coming to this earth and giving the Ten Commandments to Moses as important.

I consider his coming and wrestling with Jacob as important.

I consider his coming and being born of Mary as important.

The fact that after he died on the cross that He returned to the Father after talking to Mary and that He came back to this earth the "second" time and walked and talked with the disciples and others as significant and important.

I also look with anticipation for yet another coming after He was "once offered". But ... it is not His second coming.

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I consider his coming to this earth to create it and to establish the Sabbath and all of creation week as important.

I consider his coming to this earth and giving the Ten Commandments to Moses as important.

I consider his coming and wrestling with Jacob as important.

I consider his coming and being born of Mary as important.

The fact that after he died on the cross that He returned to the Father after talking to Mary and that He came back to this earth the "second" time and walked and talked with the disciples and others as significant and important.

I also look with anticipation for yet another coming after He was "once offered". But ... it is not His second coming.

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Good Point David. We should refer to his coming but not to His "Second" coming because it is not any kind of "second" coming at all. His next coming will be nothing like any of the other comings.

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Originally Posted By: John317

Hebrews 9: 28: "So Christ...will appear the second time...to save those who are eagerly waiting for him."

It bears repeating that it does not say Messiah will appear the fifth time but "the second time." .....

Quote:

You say it does "not say Messiah will appear the fifth time but "the second time." John ... I would have you read the verse ... it does not even say that the Messiah will appear the second time. It doesn't even use the word Messiah anywhere in the verse.

Since I disagree with everything you have said here ... I really don't know where to begin. You seem to be speaking for a lot of people with out any proof of what you say here.

The text does not use the word Messiah at all.

The Greek uses the word Christ, which is the same as Messiah. Xristos, or Christos, is simply the Greek translation of the Hebrew word Messiah. Therefore when it says, "Christ will appear the second time," it is exactly the same as saying that "the Messiah will appear the second time." All you need to do is a little basic research to see that this is true. Use Strong's concordance, for instance.

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John 317 it really doesn't matter. After Jesus rose from the tomb he talked to Mary and said he hadn't yet returned to His Father. He then left her and went to the Father. He came back for the "second" time and then met with the disciples and others.

So ... that was the "second" coming after he was crucified and rose from the grave. Again ... all you need to do is to count.

His "next" coming will be unlike all the others. It has NO relation to any of the others. In fact it will not even be a "coming" because he will not even come to the earth itself. He will be in the heavens . In the clouds. He will not even touch the earth like all the other comings.

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I don't just believe in something because everyone else is believing it. I have a brain to use. And I can count. And no where can I see a "second" coming. It simply does not make any sense. That is why I said it is a "tradition" to call it that.

I have shown you the evidence by simple addition that when he comes again it simply can not be a Second Coming. No matter how you look at it.

See the above math. And see above response #110471 that it is not even a coming at all. He will be in the heavens.

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John 317 it really doesn't matter. After Jesus rose from the tomb he talked to Mary and said he hadn't yet returned to His Father. He then left her and went to the Father. He came back for the "second" time and then met with the disciples and others.

So ... that was the "second" coming after he was crucified and rose from the grave. Again ... all you need to do is to count.

His "next" coming will be unlike all the others. It has NO relation to any of the others. In fact it will not even be a coming because he will not even come to the earth itself. He will be in the heavens . In the clouds. He will not even touch the earth like all the other comings.

Jesus also came to earth to speak to Saint Paul in the book of Acts.

But the Bible does not refer to those events as "comings", and we really should use the language the Bible uses.

Why would you refuse to use language describing Christ's return that the Bible itself uses? It's uses "coming" many times in reference to Christ's return. "Coming" does not necessarily mean touching the earth. It means "coming" here for his church, which will be translated and, as you say, meet him in the clouds.

Hebrews 9:28 and John 14:3, and many other verses, show without question that "the second coming" is properly named, but there are many things of much more importance than whether you want to call it that or not. What's important is that people know that Christ, the Messiah, God's Anointed, is returning in glory for his church and that this event has not yet occurred but is soon to take place and that we need to be ready for Him.

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Why would you refuse to use language describing Christ's return that the Bible itself uses? It's uses "coming" many times in reference to Christ's return.

Quote:
we really should use the language the Bible uses.

John ... MY point is exactly what you have said. Why do you continue to use language that is not even in the Bible. The term "second coming" which YOU say is used "many times" ... is actually NEVER used. It is only tradition.

Look up a good concordance ... you will not find the words "second coming" together anywhere in the Bible. It is simply not a Biblical term. So ... why do you keep using it?

Again ... I would have you look at what happened. Jesus has already come the second time since His death and resurrection ... so why would you continue to use an UnBiblical term?

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