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Unprepared For Christ's Return?


bevin

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Just as long...

Yes, I noticed and appreciated that. Thanks for your comment.

One reason I haven't given more of a direct response to the question asked by this thread is that I've felt I ought to give other CA members a chance to give their own answers. I'm very interested in what others think about it. May I ask what you personally believe the Seventh-day Adventist church has taught, and still teaches, about what happens to those who are still in Babylon when the seven last plagues fall and shortly thereafter Christ returns?

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...And when I see someone parade thier heritage around like some badge of honor, "a fourth generation Adventist", "theology student ","graduated from LLU","My father...,my grandfather worked as an Adventist pastor ", "worked as an associate SDA pastor"...I can only shake my head in sadness....at the absolute folly of this type of reasoning..What, in Heaven's name, does one's heratige have to do with the price of tea in china? It strikes me like the Pharisees prayer, "I am not like these sinners, Lord!" So, why put the arguenment in there in the first place??? It is distracting and begs to take a person down a notch in his sanctimounious righteousness. And you don't see Gary Venden standing on his father or grandfather or uncles laurels... Talk about the study of psycho-ceramics!!!

My dear friend, you misunderstood and misconstrued what I said and why I said it. But you're perfectly welcome to your opinion, of course.

Perhaps, however, I should explain I have always been a firm believer that offering details about such matters ordinarily makes for much more effective writing than simply giving a generalized statement. But if I did anything to offend you or cause you to be upset, I sincerely ask you to forgive me. As you say, I really ought to've been able to foresee that it would cause you to be distracted.

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Originally Posted By: David T Battler
Just as long...

Yes, I noticed and appreciated that. Thanks for your comment.

One reason I haven't given more of a direct response to the question asked by this thread is that I've felt I ought to give other CA members a chance to give their own answers. I'm very interested in what others think about it. May I ask what you personally believe the Seventh-day Adventist church has taught, and still teaches, about what happens to those who are still in Babylon when the seven last plagues fall and shortly thereafter Christ returns?

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Originally Posted By: John317

Yes' date=' I noticed and appreciated that. Thanks for your comment.

One reason I haven't given more of a direct response to the question asked by this thread is that I've felt I ought to give other CA members a chance to give their own answers. I'm very interested in what others think about it. May I ask what you personally believe the Seventh-day Adventist church has taught, and still teaches, about what happens to those who are still in Babylon when the seven last plagues fall and shortly thereafter Christ returns?

Quote:
Rev.18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Rev.18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

The Bible seems to strongly suggest too that "Babylon" is not the general body of believers in a specific Church; for as The Revelator records:

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Rev.17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.[/quote']

What "city" would meet this specification?

1) Woman in prophecy is a pure church or an adulterous, or unfaithful, church. In this case, it is obviously not a pure church. The SDA church teaches that "that great city" has reference to Rome, specifically to the Roman Catholic Church. (Even Catholic Bibles say this has obvious reference to Rome, though they say it refers to the Roman Empire rather than to the Roman church.) (GC 381-383)

2) The Seventh-day Adventist church teaches that Babylon consists of the fallen churches, including both Catholic and apostate protestants. Babylon the Great is different, being made up of the threefold union of apostate religious systems, Papacy, false protestantism, and spiritualism. (See SDAs Believe, p. 339; and SDA 7 BC 852, 829, 830.)

3) The Beast is the Roman Catholic church and Papacy-- (See Great Controversy, pp. 438-447). Virtually all SDA scholars say the same.

4) The plagues fall on the beast and on those supporting it, or on all who receive the mark of the beast.

5) Babylon and the man of sin are destroyed at Christ's return. The man of sin is the papal system, or the Pope.

6) The Third Angel's Message is proclaimed in order to warn people to come out of Babylon and take their stand for God and for God's commandments. (GC 611, 612)

According to SDA beliefs, what happens to these people in Babylon who refuse to listen to the proclamation of the Three Angels' Messages and get out of Babylon before the end of probation and the falling of the plagues?

Please let me know if there's any disagreement here up to this point as to what the Seventh-day Adventist church teaches on any of these six items.

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I wish you the best of luck with pertaining your perfection. Perhaps you think you have already achieved it now.? But, I am not interested in it . Thank you. My perfection is in Christ. And when He comes I will be transformed. I will not be changed to perfection before His coming. I wish you luck at achieving yours.

"Luck"? Luck has absolutely nothing do with any of this. But if you mean you wish me well, then thank you.

I would prefer that you would pray for me that I will remain loyal and faithful.

You totally misunderstand if you think I believe I have achieved any kind of perfection. Far from it. The closer we come to Christ the more sinful we will seem in our our own eyes. We only reach absolute perfection in moral character after the return of Christ.

Please see my quotes from Adventists Believe and from the Bible itself on post #110672.

I certainly am not talking about any sort of "perfectionism."

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Tambul and Hamak journeyed to Shambala. As they journeyed, the sun, in its season, oppressed them; whereupon, they sought a Bodhi. Sitting beneath the branches of one found near the Pamba – they contemplated its waters as they rested. Shortly,

the cries of a man interrupted their thoughts: it was someone trapped and struggling in a savage eddy. It would be moments before he drowned.

“Master, shall we save him?” asked Hamak.

“No, it is his karma. He should not have been in the waters of the great Pamba” replied Tambul.

KARMA!? Holy bowels of mercy! Say what!? -- Pogo

Addendum:

(I have a souvenir from the Charter City of London [financial capital of the world] upon which is the crest of the district. It features two dragons – replicas of those on the blue tiles of the Ishtar Gate of Babylon. Interesting? I think so.)

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Our problem as a church is that most of the church has not even totally accepted and practiced them, let alone proclaimed or communicated them. We can't communicate something we haven't understood or accepted ourselves. The understanding, accepting and giving of those messages has to do directly with the question posed by this thread.

John, if most of the church doesn't embrace these teachings how can we say that the church teaches them. Or is it a top down thing? We are to look to others to tell us what to believe? That is just like the Catholic view of human authority. We must submit to those (humans) in authority, they say. They know what we should believe.

~d.allan

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I'm rigid and inflexible when it comes to obedience to God and love of His word. I confess it openly and without shame. In fact, if I am ashamed of anything, it is that I waited so long to become rigid and inflexible in my loyalty to God. I would say with Paul, I wish that all men and women might become as I am, except for the sins that used to bind me. But, praise the Lord, He freed me, just as it says in Romans 7:24, 25 and 1 John 5:5. Today, I no longer live to please people but "I delight in the law of God."

John, in defending Neils beautiful new word I did not have you in mind. "Psycoceramic" is very expressive. If you describe yourself as "rigid and inflexible" that is your right. I'll not go there. If it is true, you may come to regret it in time. It is fine to hold to your beliefs. But Everyone has this right.

Would you agree that it is ok to be rigid and inflexible with oneself but not with others. (I prefer to treat myself as I treat others :)

~d.allan

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Test all things by the written Word.

And of course David has done that and has determined that I have not and therefore HE is correct and the rest of us are in error.

What you are saying here is that when I read the Bible I don't test it according to the "written word" like you do.

Wow ... I am impressed.

That kind of statement seems really silly to me. To thinkt that a Christian would read the Bible and not test it to the Word. We all "test it" but we all come up with different conclusions. So your "solution" is really no solution at all. What we have to have is the right intrepretation. And the only way we will ever know if we have done that is when Jesus comes. We will not know for sure until then. Until then this self-righteous belief that WE or YOU have tested your belief against scripture and have been found righteous is a farce. Give all of us some credit. Respect your brother enough and accept that sincere minds may differ as to what the Bible teaches. Stop this holy self righteous attitude that YOU have the TRUTH and others don't test it according to the written word.

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Test all things by the written Word.

That kind of statement seems really silly to me. To thinkt that a Christian would read the Bible and not test it to the Word. We all "test it" but we all come up with different conclusions. So your "solution" is really no solution at all. What we have to have is the right intrepretation.

Hi Redwood,

Some people, of course, have studied more and have better memories than others. Also, a new Christian who has just started reading the Bible will not have as much experience with the Scriptures as someone who's been studying the Bible for many years, so the more experienced person's "test" will probably be better than the test of the new Christian's.

There are certainly right interpretations and there are wrong interpretations. There are interpretations more right than others, although neither one may be completely right.

Another thing is that we all have to be willing to learn from each other and be willing to change according to what we find to be true.

Believe it or not, there are many Christians who read the Bible and don't test things. Some don't know how. Most Christians have not read the Bible through even one time, so there are many verses in the Bible they have never even seen. And others do know how to test it but they don't do it because they don't want to know the truth because the truth calls for change and they don't want to change.

Do you believe the Bible is its own best interpreter? Do you also believe that without the holy Spirit directing our minds and making us teachable, we are liable to twist the scriptures?

"Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things [a new heaven and a new earth, wherein dwells righteousness] be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, and regard the patience of our Lord to be salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard lest, being carried away by the error of unprincipled men, you fall from your own steadfastness, but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ." (2 Peter 3:14-18.) John

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I'm rigid and inflexible when it comes to obedience to God and love of His word. I confess it openly and without shame. In fact, if I am ashamed of anything, it is that I waited so long to become rigid and inflexible in my loyalty to God. I would say with Paul, I wish that all men and women might become as I am, except for the sins that used to bind me. But, praise the Lord, He freed me, just as it says in Romans 7:24, 25 and 1 John 5:5. Today, I no longer live to please people but "I delight in the law of God."

...Would you agree that it is ok to be rigid and inflexible with oneself but not with others. (I prefer to treat myself as I treat others :) ~d.allan

Yes, exactly. We all have to allow for other's differences. Jesus and Paul certainly did. Jesus told people the truth but He never forced people. And it was Saint Paul who said, "Let every man be persuaded in his own mind."

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Our problem as a church is that most of the church has not even totally accepted and practiced them, let alone proclaimed or communicated them. We can't communicate something we haven't understood or accepted ourselves. The understanding, accepting and giving of those messages has to do directly with the question posed by this thread.

John, if most of the church doesn't embrace these teachings how can we say that the church teaches them. Or is it a top down thing? We are to look to others to tell us what to believe? That is just like the Catholic view of human authority. We must submit to those (humans) in authority, they say. They know what we should believe.

~d.allan

The context of that statement-- that is, the things the church as a whole has neither fully understood or accepted-- has to do with the proclaiming of the Third Angels' Message. The church was raised up for the express purpose of accepting and then giving to the world the Three Angels' Messages, but it is obvious that we have not yet accepted those messages ourselves. In fact, the church is giving evidence of doubting and, in some cases, of outright rejection of the Spirit of Prophecy. The rejection of the Testimonies For the Church is the Omega of apostasy that Ellen White spoke of which is to happen just before the return of Christ. She said that will be Satan's last great test to the Adventist people. Some think the Sabbath is our last great test, but the Sabbath is not the church's last great test, as it is to the rest of the world. SDA's have been tested on the Sabbath all along, ever since shortly after 1844. Rather, the church's last great test is our relationship to the prophet that God sent to us.

As to your other question, about whether we are to look to others to tell us what to believe-- absolutely not. We are to study our Bible's and the Spirit of Prophecy for ourselves, personally, seeking the Holy Spirit's direction in understanding them and applying them to our individual lives.

One of the major problems facing the church today, however, is due to the fact that many of our members are entering into the church without having a firm foundation in the teachings of the church. So people are coming into the church and not even knowing whether they believe what the church represents. Then afterwards they may reject what the church teaches yet remain in the church and teach against the church's doctrines. That only causes confusion and dissension. As a church the Holy Spirit unites us on truth-- and God's Word is Truth. We are not to be like ecumenical groups that are united on a few common teachings and suppress the rest. The Bible does not teach that as a church we are to be filled with people all teaching something different. The Bible stresses oneness, unity, speaking the same mind, etc., not pluralism. See, for instance, Eph. 4: 5, 11-14.

Please do not think that I am saying that all of us have to see eye to eye on every detail of doctrine. I don't think that at all. In fact, I wouldn't want to see that. Even in heaven there will no doubt be differences of opinion on some things. What I have reference to is the necessity of unity on the major church doctrines, such as the 27 or 28 fundamental teachings.

The world church in General Conference is the highest authority in the church and they are the ones to determine what the church teaches. If they decide on doctrines that are contrary to the word of God, we have to accept the word of God in spite of their decision. But so far I don't see from studying a book such as Adventists Believe and comparing it with the Bible, that Seventh-day Adventists are teaching any false doctrines.

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...Would you agree that it is ok to be rigid and inflexible with oneself but not with others. (I prefer to treat myself as I treat others :) ~d.allan

Yes, exactly. We all have to allow for other's differences. Jesus and Paul certainly did. Jesus told people the truth but He never forced people. And it was Saint Paul who said, "Let every man be persuaded in his own mind."

Thank you for that statement, John.

Does that mean that people like myself are welcome as members in the SDA Church - people who used to accept all the Official Teachings but after study and thinking have had to adopt different beliefs in order to comply with St. Paul's opinion that 'what ever is not of faith is sin.'?

Or should we find a different church as others have done?

~d.allan

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...Would you agree that it is ok to be rigid and inflexible with oneself but not with others. (I prefer to treat myself as I treat others :) ~d.allan

Yes, exactly. We all have to allow for other's differences. Jesus and Paul certainly did. Jesus told people the truth but He never forced people. And it was Saint Paul who said, "Let every man be persuaded in his own mind."

Thank you for that statement, John.

Does that mean that people like myself are welcome as members in the SDA Church - people who used to accept all the Official Teachings but after study and thinking have had to adopt different beliefs in order to comply with St. Paul's opinion that 'what ever is not of faith is sin.'?

Or should we find a different church as others have done?

~d.allan

I think it depends on what church doctrines a person rejects. There has to be agreement on the truth of "the old landmarks." Those are:

1) The commandments of God and the faith of Jesus;

2) The Sabbath;

3) The non-immortality of the wicked;

4) Christ's return, or the Second Advent;

5) The sanctuary in heaven;

6) The Three Angels' Messages.

(The gospel is included in the faith of Jesus and in the three angel's messages.)

Of course, being a member is something different than worshipping with the church. Anyone should be welcome to join worship services and fellowship with the church, as long as they are not disruptive. However, membership has to be limited to Christians who accept basic doctrines. If I didn't accept those, I would withdraw my membership. I think that is the honest thing to do.

I'm still not clear on what church doctrines you reject and what different beliefs you have adopted. I suppose I could read all your posts to find out, but would you care to mention one or two things here?

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I suppose I could read all your posts to find out, but would you care to mention one or two things here?

1.I believe as St. Paul did that one day of worship out of the 7 is as good as any other.

2. I believe the Bible is to be understood symbolically and not literally. Creation took more than 7 literal days etc. Lots wife did not actually turn into a pillar of salt. Its just a very poetic idea, a symbol expressing her salty tears and her sadness at leaving that city.

3. Heaven is a state of mind, not a literal place.

4. Eternal life is the experience of the presence within one's selfhood of God Who Alone is Eternal.

5. God loves and accepts me and my beliefs because they are sincerely held.

~d.allan

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D. Allan said:

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God loves and accepts me and my beliefs because they are sincerely held.

icon_confused.gif Wait a minute... I don't understand why God would need to *accept* anyone's beliefs, sincerely held or not. It just doesn't seem right to me..maybe I'm missing something.... dontgetit.gif

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D. Allan said:
Quote:
God loves and accepts me and my beliefs because they are sincerely held.

icon_confused.gif Wait a minute... I don't understand why God would need to *accept* anyone's beliefs, sincerely held or not. It just doesn't seem right to me..maybe I'm missing something.... dontgetit.gif

1 Tim 1:12 I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has strengthened me, because He considered me faithful, putting me into service;

When did Jesus consider Saul/Paul faithful - before or after he met Jesus? A: Before...

Verse 13 even though I [Paul] was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent aggressor [as Saul]. And yet I was shown mercy, because I acted ignorantly in unbelief; 14 and the grace of our Lord was more than abundant, with the faith and love which are found in Christ Jesus. 15 It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all.

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1.I believe as St. Paul did that one day of worship out of the 7 is as good as any other.

Paul is talking about the ceremonial days, not the Sabbath. He clearly points out the Sabbath in Hebrews chapter 4 as it pertains to redemption.

Oh boy....Whatever!

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Lots wife did not actually turn into a pillar of salt.

She appeared to be turned to a pillar of salt....What ever hit her she ended up like those people in Pompeii

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3. Heaven is a state of mind, not a literal place.

Oh boy...

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4. Eternal life is the experience of the presence within one's selfhood of God Who Alone is Eternal.

Huh?

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5. God loves and accepts me and my beliefs because they are sincerely held.

Already quoted Timothy...

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**sigh**

I guess I'm not asking my question in the right way. I'm not questioning whether or not God loves someone. But I don't understand why God loves someone BECAUSE of his/her beliefs. Is God's love contingent on sincere beliefs? (not talking about being *saved* here.....just being loved by God).

confused.gif

ah well.....maybe it doesn't matter...

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I suppose I could read all your posts to find out, but would you care to mention one or two things here?

You're probably referring to what Saint Paul said in Romans 14: 5,6. While I do believe wholeheartedly that Paul's words, "Let every man be fully convinced in his own mind," applies to the weekly Sabbath as well as to all other Christian beliefs (for God only accepts worship given to Him freely and intelligently), yet I don't believe those verses were written with specific reference to the holy Sabbath day. I'm not alone in this belief, as is apparent in the notes I read in various non-SDA study Bibles.

There are a number of important contextual reasons for thinking this way. For one thing, there was no controversy in the NT church about the weekly Sabbath. There was a great deal of controversy, however, over the Old Testament ceremonial law. The Zondervan study Bible says about these verses, "Some feel that this refers primarily to the Sabbath, but it is probably a reference to all the special days of the OT ceremonial law."

An examination of Acts 13: 42, 44 also shows that Saint Paul kept the weekly Sabbath. Otherwise, why didn't Paul tell the Gentile people of Antioch to come the very next day, Sunday, to hear the word of God, instead of telling them to wait for a whole week before hearing it? Secondly, if he was not keeping the Sabbath, it is very remarkable indeed that no one ever accused him of being a Sabbath-breaker, an offense punishable by death among the Jews. And thirdly, if he was teaching people to break the Sabbath, how could the Christians have made the statement about Paul in Acts 21: 24? Lastly, church historians of the 5th century, record that the early church, except at Rome and Alexandria, was keeping the weekly Sabbath "almost everywhere." At first they were worshipping right along with the Jews, as the book of Acts shows.

Quote:
2. I believe the Bible is to be understood symbolically and not literally. Creation took more than 7 literal days etc. Lots wife did not actually turn into a pillar of salt. Its just a very poetic idea, a symbol expressing her salty tears and her sadness at leaving that city.

Yet it is obvious that Jesus and the prophets of God, such as Paul, Peter and Jude did not understand these things to be merely symbolic. In other words, we may choose to understand them this way, but it is obvious that this viewpoint is contrary to the Bible's view of itself. Jesus was certainly not the type to just go along with the popular view of things. And the Bible says plainly that God cannot lie. It also says that every word of God is truth.

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3. Heaven is a state of mind, not a literal place.

But the question is, is this true? Is this what the Bible teaches? It is well and fine to give your opinion of heaven, but since you have never been there, it is not worth much. I say this respectfully, knowing full well that my opinion also is worthless when it comes to knowing what heaven is like. The only thing we have that is dependable about heaven is the word of God. See John 3:12, 13; Rev. 11:19. If it is not a literal place, then the Bible certainly appears to be lying, as in the verse that says, "Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant..." Also, "I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride..." Or: "Fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them [the wicked]."

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4. Eternal life is the experience of the presence within one's selfhood of God Who Alone is Eternal.

How do you understand and explain 1 Cor. 15: 18, 19?

And what about the gift of immortality that the Bible says God will give to all who are finally counted among the saved after Jesus returns in glory for His church? The Bible says this has been a promise of God ever since the beginning of time when Christ first promised Adam and Eve that a Savior would come one day and restore them to the garden if they continued faithful to God. See especially John 11, concerning the raising of Lazarus and the promise of the resurrecton; and compare 1 Cor. 15: 42-56; 1 Thess. 4: 13-18. It is obvious that the writer intends his words to be understand in a literal sense, not primarily symbolically.

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5. God loves and accepts me and my beliefs because they are sincerely held.~d.allan

But you will agree, won't you, that people hold all kinds of false beliefs sincerely? They are sincerely wrong. God holds us accountable for the opportunities we have to know the truth.

Yet I do agree that God loves us even though we are often wrong. We can be glad that He is a good, loving God.

I personally would accept you any time, even though I don't share any of the views you described above. But I am very happy that you're a member of CA and I would be glad also if you chose sometimes to worship side by side with Seventh-day Adventist Christians.

In any case, I'm the kind of person who can talk to people of any belief whatever and enjoy my time spent with them. I enjoy listening and learning what other people think far more than talking about my own beliefs, actually. I studied with a Jehovah's Witness man for about three hours twice a week for over a year and hardly said a word about what I think. I honestly just loved listening to him. I asked tons of questions but I basically just listened to him and to the overseers he would bring to help answer my questions. So you can see what I am like personally.

However, when it comes to being a member of the SDA church, my question would be why would you want to become a member when your beliefs are so different from theirs? (Perhaps you don't want to be a member; I am only asking the question for the sake of making a point.) My JW friend wanted me to become a member of the Watchtower organization but I only believed in about 70% of their belief system. So I told him I couldn't.

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Originally Posted By: rudywoofs
D. Allan said:
Quote:
God loves and accepts me and my beliefs because they are sincerely held.

icon_confused.gif Wait a minute... I don't understand why God would need to *accept* anyone's beliefs, sincerely held or not. It just doesn't seem right to me..maybe I'm missing something.... dontgetit.gif

1 Tim 1:12 I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has strengthened me, because He considered me faithful, putting me into service;

Paul wanted to live up to God's trust in him. The word "faithful" could be translated "trustworthy," so Paul did everything he could not to let God down. I find that a really wonderful concept-- that God trusts us and is depending on us, just as He did Job. I also don't want to let Him down or embarrass Him. The whole universe is watching. Our little world is like a theater. How are we doing?

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**sigh**

I guess I'm not asking my question in the right way. I'm not questioning whether or not God loves someone. But I don't understand why God loves someone BECAUSE of his/her beliefs. Is God's love contingent on sincere beliefs? (not talking about being *saved* here.....just being loved by God).

confused.gif

ah well.....maybe it doesn't matter...

One's beliefs are closely connected to one's faith and one's behavior. Our beliefs determine how we relate to God and what we think He is like and whether we will love Him or be afraid of Him or maybe even ignore Him. Our beliefs also can be important in determining how we treat others.

God of course loves everyone, but our beliefs can make it easy or make it hard for God to get through to us. The plan of God is to help us to become like Him, and we can become like Him only through the hearing or reading of His word. Please see 1 John 3:1-10, esp. v. 2,3. Faith cometh by hearing the word of God. If we don't study the word of God, then, we can't get faith. And the Bible goes on to say that without faith it is impossible to please God.

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Tambul and Hamak journeyed to Shambala. As they journeyed, the sun, in its season, oppressed them; whereupon, they sought a Bodhi. Sitting beneath the branches of one found near the Pamba ? they contemplated its waters as they rested. Shortly,

the cries of a man interrupted their thoughts: it was someone trapped and struggling in a savage eddy. It would be moments before he drowned.

?Master, shall we save him?? asked Hamak.

?No, it is his karma. He should not have been in the waters of the great Pamba? replied Tambul.

KARMA!? Holy bowels of mercy! Say what!? -- Pogo

Reminds me somewhat of Hermann Hesse's Siddhartha and some of the Hindu and Buddhist scriptures.

Why don't you say in plain language how you relate this to what you find on this thread?

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But I don't understand why God loves someone BECAUSE of his/her beliefs. Is God's love contingent on sincere beliefs? (not talking about being *saved* here.....just being loved by God).

What I meant is that God loves and accepts us just as we are. Our beliefs being part of us, I guess. Although I'm sure some philosophers might be say we are separate from them. ?

~d.allan

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