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Unprepared For Christ's Return?


bevin

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I wrote following to the official Seventh-day Adventist website and received the response that you read here:

I simply wanted to know if our church still believes that (a) the first beast of Rev. 13 and the little horn in Daniel 8 in prophecy both refer to the papacy; (B) that the second beast is the United States; © that Babylon includes the Roman Catholic Church; and (d) that all who refused to leave Babylon before probation ends and continue to violate God's commandments until Jesus returns, will be destroyed along with the antiChrist and the rest of those in rebellion against God. I do appreciate your answers up to this point, but I would like a plain answer to a, b, c, and d.

RESPONSE: The answer to your a, b, and c is a very positive yes. The Adventist

Church as I know it still teaches that the little horn of Daniel 8 and

the first beast of Revelation 13 both refer to the Roman Catholic

Church. The second beast of Revelation 13 refers to the USA. There may

be those who are turning away from these truths, but I hope and pray

that they are in the minority.

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David,

I hope you understand that I did not add the part about "many apostates in the church," but it was written by those working on the official Adventist church website in response to my question and my statement that some Adventists reject the teachings we're discussing.

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David,

I hope you understand that I did not add the part about "many apostates in the church," but it was written by those working on the official Adventist church website in response to my question and my statement that some Adventists reject the teachings we're discussing.

Yes, I realized that John; I was just trying to pick your brain for any thoughts thereof. I would be interested to hear any and all comments re the texts I referred to in my last post above. :JF

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Because the writer did not give an answer regarding point "d", I wrote back and requested an answer on it as well:

I wrote: "I observe you did not give an answer with regard to question d. Could you please tell me if the answer to that question is also a positive yes? Thank you."

THE ANSWER: Sorry that I missed the d. Of course those who have not accepted

Christ's generous resolution to our sin problem will be on the wrong

side when probation closes. The wrong side will not love the only Jesus

as presented in the Bible and therefore will not keep His commandments

and that would include the 4th commandment. "John 14:21 He who has My

commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me

will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to

him." NKJV"

One thing that we need to keep in mind is this. "2 Peter 3:9 The Lord

is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is

longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all

should come to repentance. NKJV"

We should also be as long suffering as our Lord and Savior is toward His

children who do not believe as we do. It is our duty to submit to Him

and witness to others as He did while He was here on earth. We must be

willing to be led by the Holy Spirit and recognize our own sins so that

we will not fall into the group of those who are on the wrong side of

the controversy when our probation closes whether it be in death or

should we live until Jesus comes.

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Hi John317

It is good that you added how that there are "many apostates in the Church." We know that to be true; but sometimes we don't like to admit it. But, conversely; we don't like to admit how that there are many of "God's people," within the folds of the Catholic Church.

Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Yes, you are exactly right here. It is a point I myself have made on this thread time and again. Teaching Bible truth on these matters should certainly not be viewed as a personal attack on Roman Catholics any more than on SDAs, because being in Babylon in the ulitmate sense is a state of the mind and heart. That is, while the SDA church itself is not a part of Babylon, a person can have his heart and mind filled with false teachings and be practicing a lifestyle in harmony with spiritual Babylon even while one's name is registered as a member of the SDA church.

We're addressing the issue of what the Bible teaches about a system, not as an attack against individuals, who may be sincere and honest toward God. The Catholic church has over a billion people on its rolls, so I am sure that there are many millions among that group who are sincere Christians and are living up to all the light or knowledge they have. That is probably more than can be said for many SDA, who claim to have more truth but who may not be living up to what they know. But now, as you point out, God is calling those people out in order to take their stand with God's truth as it is in Jesus, and with His commandments, as opposed to false traditions and teachings in opposition to God's word.

A very important, concomitant point in all this is that SDAs must first accept and practice the Three Angels' Messages before we can give them. The basic teaching of the Three Angels is Christ our righteousness-- including both justification and sanctification by faith-- and I don't believe our beloved church has yet accepted and practiced that message as God would have us. I believe that is the reason Christ has not yet come.

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That brings up another point that is worth repeating. I was not the one who came up with the title of this thread. I never have stated that I believe the SDA church teaches that all Catholics will be destroyed. The question is, rather, what does the SDA church (and by implication, of course, the Bible) teach will happen to those who refuse to respond to the three angel's messages and remain in Babylon until Jesus comes? I don't know why but there seems to be many who either don't know the answer or don't like the answer given by the SDA church or the Bible.

The answer is that if I am in the largest group that has received the mark of the beast and is worshipping the beast and its image instead of with a much smaller group of those keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, I will be lost. Bible prophecy shows that there will be only two groups when Jesus returns, so obviously everyone will be in either one or the other of those groups. The one group will be saved while those in the other will not be saved. (It goes without saying that people are saved individually because of a personal, faith-based relationship with Christ and not simply because they are in a group or a church.)

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Hi John317

I assume you meant 21:43 in both references. If that's the case, then I would say that people are free to choose and that God is calling Roman Catholics to put their complete faith in Him and to cast off their false doctrines. If the Catholic church did this as a group and began proclaiming the Three Angels Messages as given in Rev. 14, God would work with them the same as He has with the SDA church. If, on the other hand, the SDA church refused, as the ancient children of Israel in the wilderness did, to obey God and keep His commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus, which is the spirit of prophecy, then of course God could take the truth from the SDA people and give it to the Roman Catholic church. (There is nothing in prophecy, however, to indicate that will happen, or that the RC will cast off the little horn power or the beast power of Rev. 13.)

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Hi John317

...To me; if Catholics were to know what we taught on this point I am making; they would be less likely to classify our literature as "hate."

Yes; I believe that the Adventist Church is the Remnant Church of Bible prophecy, I am just trying to do a reality check here.

What do you think?

Of course I completely agree with you here. I don't talk to my wife's family about the issues we are talking about here, because they are not ready for them yet. We are talking to them about the Bible as God's word and that it is reliable and also about what happens when a person dies. One of my wife's sister's is so happy to hear this truth because now she is no longer afraid at night that her dead husband will come for a visit, which she says he did once before.

So, yes, we have to be loving and wise in how we approach these topics and know when it is appropriate. God will lead in deciding this if we are open to the Holy Spirit.

I talk about this here because it is an SDA website and I believe that as SDAs we should be able to discuss what the church and the Bible teach about it.

We need to be willing to share the truth but we should always do it with love and know when the right time is to talk about these truths. Generally speaking, it's something that only has meaning after a person has heard the gospel and has accepted Jesus Christ as his personal Lord and Savior. Even then, there are other Bible truths that should be studied before we get to the point of showing what the Bible says about certain end-time events or the nature of the beast power of Rev. 14 and the little horn. Those things are important but there's a correct order in which these things should be studied and presented.

What's amazing here, though, is the fact that there are priests and others in the Catholic church who are aware that the Catholic church is included in Babylon and even that the papacy is antichrist. There are priests who have written books on this. But again it is not something you rush into with people until you believe they are ready.

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Yes; my mistake/typo, that should have been Mat.21:43.

Thanks for your replies. Maybe I should re-phrase my question a bit. Who does Mat. 21:43 apply to? Is it just for Adventists? I thought the Bible, and all that was in it, was for everyone?

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Yes; my mistake/typo, that should have been Mat.21:43.

Thanks for your replies. Maybe I should re-phrase my question a bit. Who does Mat. 21:43 apply to? Is it just for Adventists? I thought the Bible, and all that was in it, was for everyone?

Sure, the Bible is certainly for everyone. Matt. 21:43 is specifically directed to the Jewish people, and should be read in the context of Daniel 9:24, which was God's probationary period of time for the Jews to accept the Messiah. God works the same in principle with all people.

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Additional evidence:

Regarding the point, what will happen to those who refuse to separate from

Babylon before the close of probation?, here is again the answer from the

Spirit of Prophecy:

"The Sabbath will be the great test of loyalty, for it is the point of truth

especially controverted. When the final test shall be brought to bear upon

men, then the line of distinction will be drawn between those who serve God

and those who serve Him not. While the observance of the false sabbath in

compliance with the law of the state, contrary to the fourth commandment,

will be an avowal of allegiance to a power that is in opposition to God, the

keeping of the true Sabbath, in obedience to God's law, is an evidence of

loyalty to the Creator. While one class, by accepting the sign of submission

to earthly powers, receive the mark of the beast, the other choosing the

token of allegiance to divine authority, receive the seal of God." The Great

Controversy, p. 605.

"When Christ ceases His intercession in the sanctuary, the unmingled wrath

threatened against those who worship the beast and his image and receive his

mark (Revelation 14:9, 10), will be poured out. The plagues upon Egypt when

God was about to deliver Israel were similar in character to those more

terrible and extensive judgments which are to fall upon the world just

before the final deliverance of God's people. Says the revelator, in

describing those terrific scourges: 'There fell a noisome and grievous sore

upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped

his image.' " The Great Controversy, pp. 627, 628.

Who or what is Babylon, and Babylon the Great? Here are the answers:

"Babylon is said to be 'the mother of harlots.' By her daughters must be

symbolized churches that cling to her doctrines and traditions, and follow

her example of sacrificing the truth and the approval of God, in order to

form an unlawful alliance with the world. The message of Revelation 14

announcing the fall of Babylon, must apply to religious bodies that were

once pure and have become corrupt." The Great Controversy, pp. 382, 383.

" 'I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the

earth was lightened with his glory. And he cried mightily with a strong

voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the

habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every

unclean and hateful bird.' 'And I heard another voice from heaven, saying,

Come out of her, My people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that

ye receive not of her plagues.' Revelation 18:1, 2, 4.

"This scripture points forward to a time when the announcement of the fall

of Babylon, as made by the second angel of Revelation 14 (verse 8), is to be

repeated, with the additional mention of the corruptions which have been

entering the various organizations that constitute Babylon, since that

message was first given, in the summer of 1844." The Great Controversy, p.

603.

Who is the first beast?

"The prediction that it will speak 'as a dragon' and exercise 'all the power

of the first beast' plainly foretells a development of the spirit of

intolerance and persecution that was manifested by the nations represented

by the dragon and the leopardlike beast. And the statement that the beast

with two horns 'causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship

the first beast' indicates that the authority of this nation is to be

exercised in enforcing some observance which shall be an act of homage to

the papacy." The Great Controversy, p. 442.

" 'The beast' mentioned in this message, whose worship is enforced by the

two-horned beast, is the first, or leopardlike beast of Revelation 13 - the

papacy." The Great Controversy, p. 445.

What is the throne of the beast which will receive the fifth plague?

"In the sixth century the papacy had become firmly established. Its seat of

power was fixed in the imperial city, and the bishop of Rome was declared to

be the head over the entire church." The Great Controversy, p. 54.

"That a church is represented by a horn is proved in Dan. 7, the "little

horn" representing the Roman church, even before it was possessed of civil

power. So also in Rev. 13. The dragon (pagan Rome) gave the beast (the

church) his power (civil power), and seat (City of Rome), and great

authority." The Spirit of Prophecy, vol. 4, p. 502. - Appendix.

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In another thread, a sincere SDA wrote...

Quote:
The seven last plagues will fall soon and if they are still in the Catholic church when they fall, the Bible says they will be destroyed.

Is this what the SDA teach?

/Bevin

Up to this point I have given about 15 different sources showing that Seventh-day Adventists do indeed teach that all who remain in Babylon [which includes the Roman Catholic and the false protestant churches] and receive the mark of the Beast before the seven last plagues fall will also be destroyed when Christ returns because they will unfortunately have placed themselves on the side of Satan and the antichrist power.

Before the discussion is finished, I plan to give about 15 more SDA sources, and I would ask anyone to come forward with any publications by the SDA church that contradict these teachings.

In the meantime, let's discuss what the Bible evidence is for these teachings. Does the Bible support what SDAs teach and believe on these issues? And why is it important for us to have a Biblically correct understanding of prophecy regarding these questions?

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The First Angel's Message:

"Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment is come: and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water." (Rev. 14:6-7)

The first angel's message urges us to consider that the judgment is taking place now in heaven, because the present time, namely after 1798 and before the Second Coming, coincides with the period in which the judgment is taking place. Furthermore, mankind is being called upon to worship God, the Creator of heaven and earth. Yet despite this call, many people still believe in the unproven theory of evolution. God lets man know that the beauty and the amazing order and laws of nature were created by Him and did not "evolve" by accident (see Romans 1:20-21). He reminds mankind that He is the dispenser of all gifts and He deserves our love and worship. True love and worship mean keeping His law [Ten Commandments as recorded in Exodus 20:1-17] "For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments" and "One who turns away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer is an abomination" (1 John 5:3; Proverbs 28:9). To give glory to God means to reflect His character in our own. God's character is revealed to man in the life of Christ and in His law.

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GOD'S SEAL

The fourth of the Ten Commandments points directly to God as the creator: "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy...For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it" (Ex. 20:8-11) This commandment is the only one of the ten giving the name, the title, and the territory of Him by whose authority the law was given. Thus it contains "God's seal".

The Sabbath was made for mankind in all ages because it was instituted at Creation (Gen. 2:1-3). This day is to remind us again and again to think on our Creator with thanksgiving and reverence. "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy". The observance of the Sabbath is a sign of loyalty toward the true God. "Moreover I gave them my Sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the Lord that sanctify them" (Ezekiel 20:20; Isaiah 56:2; Exodus 31:13-17).

Since the beginning of the world the Sabbath, the seventh day of the week, has always been kept on Saturday. Jesus Himself explains the immutability of the Ten Commandments: "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled." (Matthew 5:17-18).

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THE SECOND ANGEL'S MESSAGE

"BABYLON IS FALLEN, is fallen, that great city, because she has made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication" (Revelation 14:8).

The term "Babylon" is derived from "Babel" and signifies confusion. It is employed in Scripture to designate the various forms of false or apostate religion.

In Revelation 17: 4-6, Babylon is represented as a harlot. In the Bible, a wicked woman is a figure of an apostate church (Jer. 3:20; Ezekiel 16:35). This harlot of Revelation 17 is "arrayed (dressed) in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the filthiness... And on her forehead a name was written: Mystery, Babylon the Great, the mother of harlots." Says the prophet: "I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus." Babylon is further declared to be "that great city (sitting on seven hills, verse 9) which reigns over the kings of the earth" (Rev. 17:18).

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MYSTERIOUS BABYLON

The power described here is none other than papal Rome, the city of seven hills. Purple and scarlet are the representative colors of the cardinals and bishops. Gold, precious stones and pearls, vividly picture the immense wealth of the papacy. Of no other power could it have been adequately stated that she was "drunk with the blood of the saints" as of this system, which persecuted the followers of Christ in such a gruesome manner. The great sin of which Babylon is guilty is that "the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication." The stunning cup which she offers to the world represents false teachings, such as the mass, the immortality of the soul, eternal hellfire, the adoration of the Virgin Mary and Sunday sacredness. These and other entirely unbiblical teachings she offers to the world and the churches, with their destructive influence.

The present warning, "Babylon is fallen," applies to all religious bodies that were once pure and have become corrupt. "It cannot refer to the Roman Catholic Church alone, for that church has been in a fallen condition for many centuries." Babylon is said to be "the mother of harlots."

Her daughters symbolize churches that cling to her doctrines (for example, Sunday sacredness) and follow her example. Therefore, the term Babylon (confusion) may be appropriately appplied to these churches. Despite the spiritual darkness and the separation from God, which exists in these churches, the majority of the true followers of Christ are still in their community. All children of God who are still found in Babylon will take to heart the call of the angel, "Babylon is fallen," and "Come out of her, my people," and will finally leave apostate, fallen churches.

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This is NOT responding to any particular person.

Every time I see this topic come up in search engines, from this site, I cringe...

I can appreciate that. But I would like hear why you cringe. (Perhaps it is because of the title, which of course is not the one I chose. Maybe we could change only the title?) It's not a subject that should give anyone pleasure except as they see people respond to the Holy Spirit and to the truth about these issues and come out of false systems of worship and doctrine. Also, it should give us pleasure as we study to see how near we are to the time when Christ will come to take us home to be with Him. But He won't come if the church is unprepared and unwilling to live up to everything He has revealed to us, and that includes accepting the Three Angel's Messages ourselves before we can give them to others.

As you can see in the 15 or so sources I have posted so far, it is what our church has always believed and taught because it is what God's word teaches. It may not be popular but if it's what the Bible teaches, we need to teach it. If people don't believe SDAs believe and teach these things, and if they believe the Bible does not teach them, now may be a good time to show these teachings are wrong and have no Biblical foundation.

No part of the Bible should be ignored, especially not the Three Angels' Messages and the events surrounding the Second Coming of Christ.

I hope everyone realizes I am not attacking individuals but am talking about a system of false doctrines and showing its relationship to what the Bible says about end-time events. My reason for doing it is to show the urgency of telling the truth about these things because if we don't tell the truth, there will be many lost because we refused to tell it. Telling it won't make us popular but it will save the honest at heart. We tell it in love but tell it we must.

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This is NOT responding to any particular person.

Every time I see this topic come up in search engines, from this site, I cringe...

I think the one who posted the original intended to make it seem as if I was attacking Catholics, which was never the case. Am I surprised? Not in the least.

I would actually like to change the title of this thread to something like, "What will happen to those unprepared for the Second Coming?" Or maybe to, "Those Unprepared for Christ's Return." Or, "What Adventists Believe About The Seven Last Plagues." If I could, I would like to keep all the posts the way they are and just put them under a new title. Is that possible?

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I know that if I were to preach this on the streets of Tijuana, I could expect much worse than someone trying to misconstrue my words. You could expect to be killed for telling the truth about such matters and about Our Lady of Guadalupe being dead in her grave. I'm sure that if I preached in certain quarters about homosexuality being a sin, I could also expect the worst. In Canada, I guess I would probably be arrested. It's easy to be popular but only if you hedge on the truth.

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