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Whats all the fuss about?


lazarus

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Taking a look, now, at vv. 1 - 12 of Isaiah 58 . . .

What behaviors are described in these verses, and when do these behaviors occur?

v. 1 Subject: the transgression, sins of the 'house of Jacob'

v. 2 What the people are doing: Seeking God "day by day."

a) apparently this is being done throughout the week.

vv. 3,4 The people have been doing the following:

a) fasting and humbling themselves;

B) finding their desire;

c) driving hard all their workers;

d) fasting for contention and strife;

e) fasting to strike with a wicked fist.

Compare that list with the behaviors enjoined in v. 13. In v. 13, the people are instructed not to do certain things on the Sabbath, as follows:

1) turn your foot from doing your own pleasure on My holy day;

2) desist from your own ways;

3) from seeking your own pleasure;

4) from speaking your own word.

Looking at the two lists thus far, I do not see a match. The items appear to be different. Secondly, I do not see a match in the time the behaviors are performed. V. 13 specifically addresses behaviors on the Sabbath. Vv. 1 - 3 address behaviors which seem to be occurring during the week.

Dave

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Quote:
back to the pinus resinosa.

Did you say Ponderosa? giddyup!

dum da-da-dum da-da-dum da-da-dum da-da-dum- dum!

dum da-da-dum da-da-dum da-da-dum da-da-dum dum dum!

Now for the salad bar.

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Gentlemen, he truly means well.

Do not you fall into the trap warned against in Isaiah 58:4 Behold, ye fast for strife and debate, and to smite with the fist of wickedness: ye shall not fast as [ye do this] day, to make your voice to be heard on high.

For one who has such knowledge, I bear a great burden that the blinders be lifted from his eyes.

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Nah, the woodpecker is just on the other side of the same tree.

Woodpeckers - Ah yes, birds of the order Piciforms of the Aves class and having zygodactyl feet allowing them to cling tenaciously to the trunk of a tree. And on the Lefebvre avian IQ scale, they are rated as being very intelligent. In case you are wondering how they can continue to endlessly hammer away without brain damage, it's because, among several unique adaptations, they have particularly thick skulls.

Tom

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vv. 3,4 The people have been doing the following:

a) fasting and humbling themselves;

B) finding their desire;

c) driving hard all their workers;

d) fasting for contention and strife;

e) fasting to strike with a wicked fist.

Compare that list with the behaviors enjoined in v. 13. In v. 13, the people are instructed not to do certain things on the Sabbath, as follows:

1) turn your foot from doing your own pleasure on My holy day;

2) desist from your own ways;

3) from seeking your own pleasure;

4) from speaking your own word.

Taking a closer look now at the question of whether or not there is a matchup between v. 13 and vv. 1 - 12 . . .

First, I note that in v. 13, God specifically mentions the Sabbath. In vv. 1 - 12, He does not. The fact that God does not mention the Sabbath in vv. 1 - 12 is significant. If the Sabbath were intended to be the focus of vv. 1 - 12, then one might expect to see it mentioned there. It is not. Of course, that observation is on a prima facie level. It is not, standing alone, determinative, but it is significant.

Secondly, taking a look at the two lists of activities,in vv. 3 and 4, and v. 13, respectively, as quoted above, they are different. There is not a match-up there. This is very significant. This is going beyond prima facie, to the core of the question.

Thirdly, the behaviors listed in vv. 2 and 3 appear to have been engaged in on a daily basis. In fact, in one case, stated as 'day to day.' By contrast, the behaviors listed in v. 13 are SPECIFICALLY linked to the Sabbath.

Fourthly, the NASB separates vv. 13 and 14 from vv. 1 - 12, as addressing a separate subject.

Fifthly, the NASB translates chepets' in v. 13 as "doing your own pleasure."

My own conclusion: There is overlap between vv. 1 - 12, and 13, 14, but not an exact match. Some behaviors described in 1 - 12 would not occur on the Sabbath, some could. And, the behaviors described in v. 13 could find some counterpart in what is described in 1 - 12. Secondly, there is the principle that a person's behavior during the week can impact whether or not s/he will realize the blessing of the Sabbath rest. Thirdly, of course, is the fact of the denotive meaning of the word, 'chepets' and it semantic range in the Hebrew OT.

In view of the foregoing facts, I conclude that 'doing your own pleasure' as the passage is rendered in the NASB, and in the KJV, is supported by the text. The issue of doing one's own pleasure as described in that verse, may have some overlap with the activities described earlier in the chapter, but it is not an exact match. Other activities are encompassed in chepets' than are described in vv. 1 - 12.

Dave

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Quote:
The fact that God does not mention the Sabbath in vv. 1 - 12 is significant.

That is an opinion.

\

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If the Sabbath were intended to be the focus of vv. 1 - 12, then one might expect to see it mentioned there.

What one might expect, another might not. That is opinion

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It is not. Of course, that observation is on a prima facie level. It is not, standing alone, determinative, but it is significant.
Stating an opinion twice does not change its status as opinion.

Quote:
Secondly, taking a look at the two lists of activities,in vv. 3 and 4, and v. 13, respectively, as quoted above, they are different. There is not a match-up there. This is very significant. This is going beyond prima facie, to the core of the question.

The two lists do not "match up," so you say, although that can be questioned. It is an opinion.

Once again, the statement about significance is opinion.

Whether it goes to "the core of the matter" is also opinion, and one we cannot evaluate, since you do not identify what you think the core of the matter is.

Quote:
Thirdly, the behaviors listed in vv. 2 and 3 appear to have been engaged in on a daily basis. In fact, in one case, stated as 'day to day.' By contrast, the behaviors listed in v. 13 are SPECIFICALLY linked to the Sabbath.

This is the first shred of actual evidence, but it can be interpreted in another way.

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Fourthly, the NASB separates vv. 13 and 14 from vv. 1 - 12, as addressing a separate subject.

You keep telling us the chapter divisions are arbitrary. Now you ask us to accept the "separation" by the NASB committee? Are they inspired? On what basis should we accept their division as not arbitrary?

Since your evidence is based mainly on your own opinion, your interpretation is simply a compounding of that opinion.

And, once again, it focuses on this chapter as a collection of verses, rather than as a literary unit that has an overall meaning.

Your continued search for "exact matches" looks precise, but its actually specious. Writers often state a premise, and then illustrate it in several ways, none of which is an "exact match."

You have done a very thorough job of mapping the details of the lists, but almost nothing concerning the actual meaning of the text.

Of course "doing your pleasure" is "within the range of meanings." Anyone with a lexicon can find that out. The question is not whether that translation is "within the range" of meanings, but which meanings are the best translation. That will be determined not by the lexicon or dictionary, but by the context, something you have not given much attention to.

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Halfstep Denise

I can't wait to get to Heaven to find out how wrong or correct you ALL are in you guesswork of what any Bible writer meant or didn't mean!

It is amazing to me how some people seem to think they have the ability to read the minds of dead Bible writers!

Halfstep Denise

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I can't wait to get to Heaven to find out how wrong or correct you ALL are in you guesswork of what any Bible writer meant or didn't mean!

It is amazing to me how some people seem to think they have the ability to read the minds of dead Bible writers!

Halfstep Denise

I can't wait to get to see Jesus wearing Jeans as he sits on his throne!!!! Is that Heretical??? or maybe he'll be wearing a tuxedo! Or maybe we won't care.

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Thank you for stepping in Halfstep Denise with something so profound. This is exactly the truth.

We will not really have accurate knowledge until Jesus comes.

In the meantime ... A little acceptance of where each of us are at would be great. We do not have to be formed into anothers malformed belief. And that is what each of us have ... a malformed belief. Our beliefs are formed by our malformed life here on this sinful malformed earth. We like it are malformed.

The Holy Spirit will give to each of us what we as individuals need and can take at this moment in time.

And Laz ... if you and God are happy with Jeans ... then that is wonderful. Don't let anyone be the judge or your experience.

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Yep, I must second that thought, Redwood and Denise. I have often said that I think that one of the reasons that there has to be a period of 1000 years in heaven after Christ does his final rescue mission is that is how long it will take to reeducate and correct all of our faulty and mistaken theology and to resolve all the unanswered questions we obsess about in the here and now. I envision that God will sit each of us down and patiently do brain house cleaning and surgery to rewire our addled selves. The conversation is going to start out sort of like this:

God: Tom, I am so glad you are here. Welcome home, to my house. It's all going to be OK now. Things were really messed up on earth... (and shaking his head) and so were you, especially some of your really foolish ideas, including about me. You're heart was in the right place, even if your head was some place else! But you are here now and that's the important thing. I know you had a bunch of questions, and doubts and things you were really struggling to understand, things that seemed hugely important... (With a big grin) See, I really was listening, after all! Well, now is your golden opportunity to ask me face to face and get all that sorted out once and for all. Where do you want to start? What burning question shall we take care of?

Me: You know what, I am having a real hard time remembering what those questions were. It seems so long ago and far away. I'm thinking that whatever it was that was bothering me then just doesn't seem all that important any more... All that seems to be echoing in my head is like music to my ears - just this incredible sense of peace settling into my mind... Wow! Can I go now? I've got to go find my family and go swim and play with some dolphins. (Thinking to myself)... Feels like a miracle to me!

God: Yeah, I know. (Grinning again) Psst, Tom, Happy Sabbath!

Tom

Tip of the day - When you talk to God, let Him have the last word.

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Has anyone else seen the late Victor Borge playing Humoresque?

I love Victor Borge! We had the chance to see him live once. You laugh til you cry!

And Ed, thanks!

Tom

:--) :---)

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Yep, I must second that thought, Redwood and Denise. I have often said that I think that one of the reasons that there has to be a period of 1000 years in heaven after Christ does his final rescue mission is that is how long it will take to reeducate and correct all of our faulty and mistaken theology and to resolve all the unanswered questions we obsess about in the here and now. I envision that God will sit each of us down and patiently do brain house cleaning and surgery to rewire our addled selves. The conversation is going to start out sort of like this:

God: Tom, I am so glad you are here. Welcome home, to my house. It's all going to be OK now. Things were really messed up on earth... (and shaking his head) and so were you, especially some of your really foolish ideas, including about me. You're heart was in the right place, even if your head was some place else! But you are here now and that's the important thing. I know you had a bunch of questions, and doubts and things you were really struggling to understand, things that seemed hugely important... (With a big grin) See, I really was listening, after all! Well, now is your golden opportunity to ask me face to face and get all that sorted out once and for all. Where do you want to start? What burning question shall we take care of?

Me: You know what, I am having a real hard time remembering what those questions were. It seems so long ago and far away. I'm thinking that whatever it was that was bothering me then just doesn't seem all that important any more... All that seems to be echoing in my head is like music to my ears - just this incredible sense of peace settling into my mind... Wow! Can I go now? I've got to go find my family and go swim and play with some dolphins. (Thinking to myself)... Feels like a miracle to me!

God: Yeah, I know. (Grinning again) Psst, Tom, Happy Sabbath!

Tom

Tip of the day - When you talk to God, let Him have the last word.

Tom TOM TOM ... RIGHT ON.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

This is the most important point that can be made. I liked your conversation with God. Thank you for sharing it with us.

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Did it ever occur to you, Redwood that we might not spend 1000 years in heaven at all? Because the Lord's time is different than our time and all that good stuff about Einstein's theory of relativity etc......could it be entirely possible that we shall rise from this planet, visit other planets, enter Heaven (be it up above or merely in another dimension), join the great feast, look over "the books" (?)and return to the "Earth made new".....and..........we shall not have been gone 1000 years.......BUT................1000 years will have passed on

"This Earth" while we are gone?...Think about it...........Regards, Don

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So have we concluded that the spirit of the Sabbath is selflessness rather than carnal indulgence?

Sabbath blessings to each of you,

olger

No, we have concluded that tolerance is as mercy is to judgement.

Really, gentlemen...all this over some kids having a bit of fun on the Sabbath....Amazing, simply amazing....

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Yes, it is truly amazing how divided we can become over the day that was meant to bring us together, to bond us one to another...

It brings to mind Jesus' prayer for us recorded in John 17. He knew what would be the most significant need of our day...

Tom

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David, this text is for you....

Micah 6:8

He has showed you, O man, what is good.

And what does the LORD require of you?

To act justly and to love mercy

and to walk humbly with your God.

I am sure you have a way to parsel this out to your way of thinking, and that is ok with me....

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Do you think the way you handled the questions helped realize Jesus' prayer here, on this thread?

All Aboard! All aboard! Guilt trip departing track 7 for Intimidation Station, Silence Dissent, Compunction Junction, and the Devotional Re-education Facility. All unattended luggage will be thrown on your back. Don't worry about seating, the conductor will put you in your place. Boarding now.

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Ed,

Loved the creative writing....

'Intimidation Station, Compunction Junction,Devotional Re-education Facility'

I must borrow these from time to time....

very creative.....

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Hi Tom. I agree that the Sabbath should bring us closer to one another in the Lord.

In that spirit, how have you been? It's been a long while since we spoke at the Remnant Online.

olger

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